1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Equality of Men and Women

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by adrian009, May 21, 2019.

  1. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,641
    Ratings:
    +1,765
    Please don't get defensive. I am not attacking the Church. I was a member from Jan 31, 2012 to Nov 2, 2017. I know a fair bit about the doctrine. There were some men that tried to practice unrighteous dominion however. Women simply have a different function than men, and I accept that, though I still won't put up with a man trying to dominate me.

    It is however a multilevel membership organization and I can accept that with some reluctance. My issue with the church is that the Leadership in SLC sought to punish me over a situation that was not my fault. Preemptively, I resigned before they got a chance to excommunicate me.

    Don't pull the "I'm more expert than you" card. I know enough to report what happened to me. Their smugness about Deep Doctrine, and various thinly veiled insinuations were unacceptable.

    We needn't speak further.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    7,397
    Ratings:
    +5,457
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Thanks for your post.

    As Mormonism emerged at a similar time to the Baha’i Faith, albeit from vastly different cultures (Islamic Shi’a Persia compared to the Christian USA) its interesting to compare similarities and differences. There are certainly many positives in regards gender equality though there’s conflicting information.

    Mormonism and women - Wikipedia

    I didn’t realise how strongly many Mormons identity with the Republican Party in American politics. Baha’is avoid involvement in party politics. So while we will vote, we are careful to avoid being aligned to a particular political party.

    U.S. religious groups and their political leanings

    Interesting comments about race too. I was aware of the Mormons history in regards darker skinned people not having the same rights as those of European ancestry.

    Mormons Once Aspired to Be a 'White and Delightsome' People
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,345
    Ratings:
    +4,796
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    What is equality anyhow? :shrug:

    Looking at this subject from the Biblical viewpoint (which is the only one that matters to me) I see that God did not separate men and women except to assign them different roles in the family and in the congregation. This whole equality thing just gets in the way of a smooth running of family and congregational cohesion IMO.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 is the way God set things up....
    "But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God."

    In this arrangement, even Christ does not please himself. This is the structure that works as long as people see that their role is an assignment from God. If the son of God knows his place then what have we got to complain about?

    In any business organization, we never see two bosses, but always one boss and several assistants who each play a role in the smooth running of the company. If the boss is away, the second-in-charge takes over and fills in as his representative. Too many bosses just doesn't work. If everyone knows their job and is happy to do it well, then there is no envy, jealousy or friction.

    The decision making can have input from many advisors, but only one bears the responsibility for it. How many CEO have had to stand down because of bad decisions that were not all theirs?

    Likewise, a car has only one driver although there might be a navigator seated next to them. Two sets of instruments and two steering wheels would just cause no end of trouble. Instead of competing, I believe that God meant the roles of both males and females to be complementary. This is what God said when he created the woman as a "complement" of her mate. If each knows what is expected and is happy to stay in that assignment, then harmony will result.

    If OTOH a person applies for a job that requires a certain level of education, then gender should not be a factor if either sex is capable of fulfilling the role. Equal pay should also apply. But I know for many men, taking orders from a woman just doesn't sit well. Its a left-over from the chauvinist era where men saw themselves more as dictators, than family heads. It was never supposed to be that way.

    That is how I see things, anyway.
     
  4. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,641
    Ratings:
    +1,765
    I just can't figure out or excuse the election of Trump. He bragged about assaulting women. Still many of my values are Republican
     
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    7,397
    Ratings:
    +5,457
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Thank you for your post.

    Sometimes its easier to see what inequality looks like. It is when one gender is denied the opportunities based on their gender. Another word is discrimination.

    Most religions in a bygone era have discriminated against women, Christianity included.

    The different roles within the family are self-evident and to a large extent biologically determined. Only women can have children and breast feed. Beyond that women appear to have the capacity though socialisation and their make up to be more nurturing. That isn't to say men can't be excellent caregivers for children too. On the whole, women appear more adept.

    I think verses like this one from St Paul has provided a lot of justification for men dominating women over the years.

    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
    And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    1 Corinthians 14:33-34

    Actually in many business organisations there are boards of directors that provide governance and CEOs who manage within the framework and parameters set down by the BOD. So a lot of authority resides with an institution rather than a single individual.

    I agree with much of this.
     
  6. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    501
    Ratings:
    +190
    Religion:
    Catholic
    If woman and men both want equality, what does equality mean when it comes to abortion? The current female thinking, with respect to abortion is, men and women are not equal, rather men and women have different roles and different needs.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. Shantanu

    Shantanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,284
    Ratings:
    +678
    Religion:
    Satya-advaita (Truth Accommodation)
    Men and women are not equal: Some men are superior to some women and some women are superior to some men. Each man and each woman must be judged individually on his or her abilities and attainments and rewarded accordingly.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  8. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    27,595
    Ratings:
    +11,895
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    People are not born equal. It applies to a lot more stuff than gender. An old man like me simply can't do the physical tasks a younger me could. Intelligence of all types (intellectual emotional, spiritual) varies from person to person. The situations people are born into (which country?) make for unequal possibilities. Poverty inhibits many. Opportunity isn't equally distributed on this planet.

    Yes some religions preached a difference in gender roles more than others. Yes some religions stressed equality of the genders more than others.

    But for me, it boils down to the individual and whether he/she treats all others with respect. A religion may well say to treat your spouse with respect, but behind closed doors, who knows? Same with working with people at work, in community, etc. How does the individual look at all the others? Does he/she see gender? Does he/she see race? Does he/she see age?

    If you look into a person's eyes, and only the eyes, there is no clear gender, age, or race. You wouldn't know those parts. So the key, for the individual, in my view, is to see all people that way. Take gender out of it 95% of the time. Yes, there are certain roles and occupations more suited to gender, for logical reasons. But we need to dig deep to truly understand which of those reasons are valid.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    11,392
    Ratings:
    +5,391
    Religion:
    None
    Physically I am in no way the equal of men.
    What do you mean when you say "equal"?
     
  10. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    8,087
    Ratings:
    +564
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    I would say Jesus Christ elevated the status of the marginalized tremendously, reproving others who refused to be egalitarian, and appearing first after His resurrection to women, and having and appointing women apostles!
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    2,840
    Ratings:
    +632
    Religion:
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    I don't know you at all and wasn't trying to be defensive. Things I post are for everyone to read, to see how I interpret my life in the Church. I'm sure you indeed know a lot about the Church and I'm sorry to hear you went through a bad experience. I was not intentionally pulling the "I'm more expert than you card." I don't understand your situation and would not try to comment on it. Can we be friends? :)
     
  12. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    2,732
    Ratings:
    +1,849
    Religion:
    Terminus Est.
    [QUOTE="Scott C., post: 6115373, member: 14110" While there are different roles, they are equal partners with an equal say in marital and family decisions.[/QUOTE]
    Separate but equal doctrine.
     
  13. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,641
    Ratings:
    +1,765
    We can be tolerant and kind to each other. Trust will take longer. Thank you.
     
  14. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    14,655
    Ratings:
    +4,056
    Religion:
    deist
    Speak for yourself

    If you want to know what I mean by equal, you will need to read the UK 2010 Equality Act.
     
  15. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    11,392
    Ratings:
    +5,391
    Religion:
    None
    Nah. Next time I visit your lil island, I will
    just tell them what is what.
     
  16. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    14,655
    Ratings:
    +4,056
    Religion:
    deist
    That sure will be scary....................
    angry.png
     
  17. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,568
    Ratings:
    +802
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    Pretty good articles. I would submit a few comments. First, it doesn't surprise me a bit that Most Mormons (American ones...most Mormons are NOT Americans) lean towards the Republicans. That didn't used to be true, actually. Idaho and Utah were fairly staunchly Democratic during the thirties, WWII and the fifties...right up through the sixties. The erosion to the right began with the Democrat Party's race problems of the time (they were the ones who were responsible for segregation and Jim Crow Laws, as it happens, and Mormons were not known as slave owners, etc., though they, like the rest of the nation, participated in the national 'this is the way it is' culture) . However, when the west started getting clobbered by the Democrats, first with Johnson and what he did with Social Security, then Clinton doing his land grab of so much of Utah, Everybody around, including the MOrmons, decided that the Democrats did not have their best interests at heart. They still don't.

    As for the 'white and delightsome'....gaaaahhhhh.

    Joseph Smith wrote 'pure and delightsome,' not 'white and delightsome.' It was a translation goof and WE CAN PROVE THAT. Much of that 'white and delightsome' claptrap comes from anti-Mormon sites and sources.

    HAS the church been racist? Yes.
    Have we fixed it considerably easier and with less hoorah than anybody else? Again, yes.

    Sheesh.
     
  18. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,568
    Ratings:
    +802
    Religion:
    LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints)
    Well, Mormons in general didn't like Trump much either. (shrug) He was just better than Clinton. You know, the woman who vilified Clinton's victims and called the discovery of his own rape and sexual harassment "a vast right wing conspiracy?"
     
  19. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,641
    Ratings:
    +1,765
    My own experience has led me to believe that terms like Republican and Democrat are perhaps meaningless because what they believe seems to shift. I was greatly surprised to find out that Democrats used the KKK in the distant past as their mouthpiece. Most of the time politics mystify me. Today Republicans seem to be grumpy and hatefully punitive, while Democrats seem to be all about LGBT rights, favoring abortion, and generally around the bend.
     
  20. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    11,392
    Ratings:
    +5,391
    Religion:
    None
    I may be that short, but I do not have curly hair. :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...