• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The empty tomb

outhouse

Atheistically
I like to read and learn from others points of view.


these are details we will never know about.

None of the scripture was written by eye witnesses or people who even knew jesus

we are left tryin to interpret through a story within a story and that historical one is often only a fraction of reality
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
these are details we will never know about.

None of the scripture was written by eye witnesses or people who even knew jesus

we are left tryin to interpret through a story within a story and that historical one is often only a fraction of reality

And you might then be willing to say....

set history aside, and deal with the fragments of faith as dealt?
 

allright

Active Member
What historical records do we have for the trial of Jesus other than the Gospels?

What historical records do we have thar claim there was no trial or crucifixion?

As I said in the opening post, noted conservative Christian apologist and Bible scholar N.T. Wright has said that in the first century, there were not even enough Christians to mount a riot in a small village.

Around 35 A.D., Christians were a very small, fragmented, and uninfluential movement. Pilate would scarcely have noticed them.

I see. the gospel accounts cant be trusted but the opinion of someone 2000 years later about how many Christians there were is to be taken as really reliable.

What does how many Christians there were 5 years later have to with whether Pilate posted a few guards a few hours after Jesus death
 
That's just the thing...See the bible was changed by man, so we cannot use the bible as reference. Allah (SWT) clearly states in the Quran, that He gave them the "likeness" of Christ Jesus (AS) to fool those who wanted to kill him. The real Jesus (AS) was taken into the Heavens by Allah (SWT) before the crucifixion occurred. Allah (SWT) states though in the Quran, that every living creature must taste death, hence Christ will come down again in body and soul to fight against the anti-Christ on the Day of Judgement. He will then die for the first time and will be buried next to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). We Muslims already have a grave for Christ after his death as a Muslim (believer). If you don't believe me, then just wait and you will see.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
That's just the thing...See the bible was changed by man, so we cannot use the bible as reference. Allah (SWT) clearly states in the Quran, that He gave them the "likeness" of Christ Jesus (AS) to fool those who wanted to kill him. The real Jesus (AS) was taken into the Heavens by Allah (SWT) before the crucifixion occurred. Allah (SWT) states though in the Quran, that every living creature must taste death, hence Christ will come down again in body and soul to fight against the anti-Christ on the Day of Judgement. He will then die for the first time and will be buried next to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). We Muslims already have a grave for Christ after his death as a Muslim (believer). If you don't believe me, then just wait and you will see.

Trying to convince people of another faith they have it wrong?
The mods will be looking for you.

As for your posting.....you would would have me believe....
Jesus never died...at all?
He would be where?...floating around in the clouds?

Your prophet has already died.

And you did offer that God would practice deceit that someone else
would die in place of the Carpenter?
 
Firstly I never said that you must follow my religion. If you are lost, then it is only Allah (SWT) who can guide you. I came here to talk about my religion and my religion tells me that Jesus (AS) was not nailed to the cross. His likeness was nailed to the cross. Allah (SWT) will not let anything bad befall his beloved Prophets. He takes care of them and protects them against their enemies. Our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) did die already yes...but Jesus (AS) did not and hence you have the second coming. He will come again so that he can taste death for the first time. Don't be stupid cause you believe in Heaven as well, and that's where Jesus (AS) is now. He is in Heaven with God awaiting the time for his so-called "second coming". Think about it nicely...the bible doesn't even make sense saying that Christ said, "My Lord, My Lord, why have you forsaken me." Why would he say this when he knows the truth about God and the Heavens and about life and death? If he knew 100% that he was dying for the sins of his people and would be returning to his Creator, then why say such a thing? Hence I say that in the Bible, Jesus (AS) appears to be weak, whereas in the Quran, he appears strong.

And no I'm not converting you...I'm just telling you the differences between the Quran and the Bible concerning Jesus (AS). What you do with that information is your business.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
What historical records do we have for the trial of Jesus other than the Gospels?

Extrabiblically.....?.....None

What historical records do we have thar claim there was no trial or crucifixion?

What?

As I said in the opening post, noted conservative Christian apologist and Bible scholar N.T. Wright has said that in the first century, there were not even enough Christians to mount a riot in a small village.

And your point? In order to substantiate biblical "historical" claims we tend to look outside the bible. When we do this the credibility of most biblical claims become suspect. Many verses of your scriptures have been added, changed and incorrectly translated. Most apologist make the claim that there is more written about Yeshua (Jesus) than any other "historical" figure but this is hardly proof of anything.

Around 35 A.D., Christians were a very small, fragmented, and uninfluential movement. Pilate would scarcely have noticed them.

Then it calls into question the validity of the trial of Yeshua as described by the bible. Yeshua was not worth even a brief mention from any contemporary of his day. The only one that wrote about him was Paul and Paul never met the man.

I see. the gospel accounts cant be trusted but the opinion of someone 2000 years later about how many Christians there were is to be taken as really reliable.

Pieces of the gospels can be trusted if one takes the time to investigate the claims properly. As far as the story of the tomb each of the gospels conflict with each other. Considering Mark was the first gospel it may be slightly more reliable than the others. It is common knowledge that Matthew and Luke, later gospels, drew considerably from Mark. In the book of Mark there is no mention of guards at the tomb but now we're to believe that Matthew and Luke, years later, some how was privy to detailed, albeit their details conflict with each other, that Mark didn't have.

What does how many Christians there were 5 years later have to with whether Pilate posted a few guards a few hours after Jesus death

A lot because it calls into question if the event even happened. Mark doesn't record any such actions of guards being posted. We find the account in Matthew and Luke and both conflict with each other.
 
Hence Allah (SWT) tells the truth in the Quran, that the crucifixion of Christ did not occur. That Christ was saved and taken up into the Heavens before the crucifixion took place. The bible was written by man and then altered by man. So it's validity goes out the window.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Nabeel Akhalwaya Motala said:
Hence Allah (SWT) tells the truth in the Quran, that the crucifixion of Christ did not occur. That Christ was saved and taken up into the Heavens before the crucifixion took place. The Bible was written by man and then altered by man. So it's validity goes out the window.

What evidence suggests to you that the Koran was not written by man?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
If God or Jesus had really wanted the resurrection to prove his divinity, you'd think they could have done a better job of getting it noticed.

Certainly obtain more notoriety then the few questionable accounts in the Bible.
God might want to consider hiring a professional publicist next time.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
If God or Jesus had really wanted the resurrection to prove his divinity, you'd think they could have done a better job of getting it noticed.

Certainly obtain more notoriety then the few questionable accounts in the Bible.
God might want to consider hiring a professional publicist next time.

you'd think....
but in order to justify the mystery, one needs faith....seems convenient.
:yes:
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Firstly I never said that you must follow my religion. If you are lost, then it is only Allah (SWT) who can guide you. I came here to talk about my religion and my religion tells me that Jesus (AS) was not nailed to the cross. His likeness was nailed to the cross. Allah (SWT) will not let anything bad befall his beloved Prophets. He takes care of them and protects them against their enemies. Our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) did die already yes...but Jesus (AS) did not and hence you have the second coming. He will come again so that he can taste death for the first time. Don't be stupid cause you believe in Heaven as well, and that's where Jesus (AS) is now. He is in Heaven with God awaiting the time for his so-called "second coming". Think about it nicely...the bible doesn't even make sense saying that Christ said, "My Lord, My Lord, why have you forsaken me." Why would he say this when he knows the truth about God and the Heavens and about life and death? If he knew 100% that he was dying for the sins of his people and would be returning to his Creator, then why say such a thing? Hence I say that in the Bible, Jesus (AS) appears to be weak, whereas in the Quran, he appears strong.

And no I'm not converting you...I'm just telling you the differences between the Quran and the Bible concerning Jesus (AS). What you do with that information is your business.

I actually don't care any dogmatic structure of faith.

The prophets are favored?....not any I have heard about.
Wasn't Muhammad poisoned?
Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land.
The Baptist was beheaded.
The Carpenter was crucified....you can deny it if you want to.

That prophets stand well before God?...in heaven?....I would hope so.
That we will do likewise?....I hope so.

That any one faith is favored over another?.....Unlikely.
 
In the Quran, God clearly states that Islam is the religion favoured by Himself over any other.

Muhammad (SAW) was not poisoned to death. He died of an illness in his old age.

The Prophets are favoured. Look at their status in the Hereafter and then look at your status in the Hereafter, then you will see.

The good and the evil will never stand together in Heaven. Heaven is a pure place only for the pure. Hell is the abode of the disbelievers.
 
It was written by Muhammad (SAW), who was illiterate. Angel Gabriel came to him in a cave and said that the Lord commands you to write. He said that he couldn't read nor could he write. Then miraculously he could read and write and understand. Allah (SWT) granted him this ability.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
In the Quran, God clearly states that Islam is the religion favoured by Himself over any other.

Muhammad (SAW) was not poisoned to death. He died of an illness in his old age.

The Prophets are favoured. Look at their status in the Hereafter and then look at your status in the Hereafter, then you will see.

The good and the evil will never stand together in Heaven. Heaven is a pure place only for the pure. Hell is the abode of the disbelievers.

As for the poison....that depends on which account you prefer.
He suffered three years, knowing what had happened.
I suppose you could say the poison was far to mild.

And you would hear the word... 'peace'.....from whose lips?

Lines in the sand.
This world and the next?

Peace is dealt....
Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.

I believe, anyone able to do so....will find peace.
 
There is no doubt concerning the death of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). He died of illness in his old age.

Peace you would hear from a Muslim's lips. For a Muslim will always greet another Muslim by saying "asalaamualaikum". Peace be upon you.

Just cause you don't believe in the Hereafter, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Yes do unto others as you would like them to do unto you...then the Jews and Christians wonder why the Muslims are killing them when they are illegally occupying the land that was occupied by Muslims and are oppressing the Muslims therein. They should practice what they preach!
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
There is no doubt concerning the death of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). He died of illness in his old age.

Peace you would hear from a Muslim's lips. For a Muslim will always greet another Muslim by saying "asalaamualaikum". Peace be upon you.

Just cause you don't believe in the Hereafter, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Yes do unto others as you would like them to do unto you...then the Jews and Christians wonder why the Muslims are killing them when they are illegally occupying the land that was occupied by Muslims and are oppressing the Muslims therein. They should practice what they preach!

You have me confused with someone else.

And your last line is even more digression.

Wanna go back to the tomb, now?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
The first century Christian church was very small and uninfluential. In 'The Rise of Christianity,' Rodney Stark estimates that there were only 7,530 Christians in the entire world in 100 A.D. In Christian apologist James Holding's article 'The Impossible Faith,' Holding quotes well-known conservative Christian Bible scholar N.T. Wright as saying "This subversive belief in Jesus' Lordship, over against that of Caesar, was held in the teeth of the fact that Caesar had demonstrated his superior power in the obvious way, by having Jesus crucified. But the truly extraordinary thing is that this belief was held by a tiny group who, for the first two or three generations at least, could hardly have mounted a riot in a village, let alone a revolution in an empire."

Logically, the smaller and less influential a group is, the less that people pay attention to them. Not only that, but the notion that a person would rise from the dead was considered to be an absurd proposal even by Jesus' closest followers.

If guards had not been posted at the tomb, and it had been found empty, what would the vast majority of people have concluded? Probably not that Jesus had physically risen from the dead. The texts say that even the empty tomb did not convince Peter and Mary Magdalene that Jesus had risen from the dead.

Consider the following:

Wikipedia said:
Christian apologetics (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is a field of Christian theology that aims to present a rational basis for the Christian faith, defend the faith against objections, and expose the perceived flaws of other world views. Christian apologetics has taken many forms over the centuries, starting with Paul the Apostle, including writers such as Origen and Augustine of Hippo, and continuing currently with the modern Christian community through the efforts of many authors in various Christian traditions such as G.K.Chesterton and C. S. Lewis. Apologists have based their defense of Christianity on historical evidence, philosophical arguments, scientific investigation, and arguments from other disciplines. Christian polemic is a term used for apologetics which primarily criticizes or attacks other belief systems.

A major purpose of Christian apologetics is to try to defend the Bible with evidence other than just faith. Christians who use Christian apologetics know that a large percentage of non-Christians are not going to pay any attention to just "the Bible says so." So, for purposes of this thread, I request that Christians provide historical evidence other than just faith that reasonably proves that guards were posted at the tomb.

Proponents of the story of the guards need to provide historical, common sense arguments that show that Pontius Pilate, the chief priests, and the pharisees, were concerned that an empty tomb would cause the beginning of a dangerous new religious movement.

One Gospel, I forget which one, says the women at the tomb forgot that Jesus said that he would rise from the dead until the angel reminded them about it. Forgot? Not likely if Jesus had already raised Lazarus from the dead, thereby setting a precedent for raising people from the dead. That is the same group of women who supposedly forgot that a large, heavy stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb, and did not wonder how they would be able to get into the tomb until they were almost there.

Jesus' post-resurrection appearances do not depend entirely upon the story of the guards, but the appearances do not have substantial support from the story of the guards.
 
Top