The empty tomb

[McBell]

And I should accept your resources, rather than scripture?

Hell no!
You are supposed to toss out/ignore/etc. anything and everything that contradicts your scriptures.
I mean, is that not exactly what good little slaves...I mean sheep...I mean followers do?
They follow.

 

[Cosmos]

Please everyone consider the information presented:

[youtube]OUYA8QJ5ijQ[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUYA8QJ5ijQ



This is an accurate account of what the Gospels truly records and the allegorical descriptions shed light unto the mystery of the doctrine of the Resurrection.

The video is a great introduction into a realm of research that will unravel the dogmas woven around the misconceptions of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and the rising of every 'body'!

I pray it opens up further dialogue and expands upon the topic.

 

[Thief]

Hell no!
You are supposed to toss out/ignore/etc. anything and everything that contradicts your scriptures.
I mean, is that not exactly what good little slaves...I mean sheep...I mean followers do?
They follow.

And this brings us to an impasse.
Why should I drop the four gospels? the initial source of the story?

Most rebuttal to scriptures reports the writings took hold decades after the event.
Any other authority available?

It has been my understanding that only a small area of territory,
and a small number of witnesses were at hand.
If these reports are less than acceptable.....who then to turn to?

Which witness shall we prefer?
Thomas? having touched the Carpenter after His resurrection?
The other disciples having shared a meal with Him?
The women who came to the tomb and found a stranger there?....
And that stranger would say..
'He is risen!'

Trying to prove the resurrection did not happen?
Have you considered your future?
If Someone of His ability should fail, and death succeeds altogether...
what hope have you?

Oh that's right....you didn't believe in the first place.
You think you are dust.

 

[Agnostic75]

And I should accept your resources, rather than scripture?

Are you implying that God inspired and preserved all of the original Bible free of errors except for obvious copyist and scribal errors? If you are arguing for inerrancy, please provide whatever evidence you have that the Bible is inerrant except for obvious copyist and scribal errors. If you are not arguing for inerrancy, why is it probable that guards were posted at the tomb. I gave lots of reasons why it is plausible that guards were not posted at the tomb.

Do you believe that a global flood occured, that the earth is young, and that theistic evolution is false?

 

[Cosmos]

Are you implying that God inspired and preserved all of the original Bible free of errors except for obvious copyist and scribal errors? If you are arguing for inerrancy, please provide whatever evidence you have that the Bible is inerrant except for obvious copyist and scribal errors. If you are not arguing for inerrancy, why is it probable that guards were posted at the tomb. I gave lots of reasons why it is plausible that guards were not posted at the tomb.

Do you believe that a global flood occured, that the earth is young, and that theistic evolution is false?

Even Jewish scholars acknowledge that the entirety of the Hebrew (OT) Bible is not entirely authentic in the sense of being the Word of God. The Bible (Greek: 'Biblos' or Book/Text) is a compilation of manuscripts that are known as the Books of God and it is recognized that the Torah (Tanakh) or Pentateuch (Five Books of Moses) are the direct Word of God and in the sections in the Book of the Prophets where it may state "Here the Lord saith" are direct divinely revealed texts, while the third section are a collection of historic chronicles or narratives, such as Book of Kings and Chronicles, which are the facted inscriptions of the scribes during the Bible's nearly 1,000 years of transcribing. An example of this fact is evident in that though Baha'is, Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe that Moses wrote the texts Himself (and this is true we believe) we know that the original texts were lost so Hebrew scribes in Babylonia had to transcribe the original sources and this is why scholars or the casual reader will identify 'mistakes' like Moses speaking of Himself in third person the entire narrative or contradictory material between the third section of the Hebrew canon like discrepencies between numbers in battle, identities in scenes, etc. Another thing is that our textual rendition can often unwittingly convey inaccurate descriptions of facts actually contained in the texts, especially when translations are displaced from age to age and from culture to culture--for example in Genesis 1:1 where it states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." in the Hebrew may have a more accurate renditition as "In the a beginning..." and further evidences of this can be found (only) in the traditional King James version in Genesis 1:28 and Genesis 9:1 where the word used for "replenish" comes from the Hebrew "male" which has three strong derivative meanings in other word usages, Piel being the most relevant:

c) (Piel)
1) to fill
2) to satisfy
3) to fulfil, accomplish, complete
4) to confirm






Was there truly a worldwide flood 4,500-5,000 years ago? Yes. Archeological research has amazingly uncovered the Persian Gulf flood that had wiped out Noah's people, inundating the Middle East. The Greeks, Chinese, Native Americans, and every other indigenous culture speaks of a Flood during this same period when the texts and mythologies develop surrounding this event. And in fact it was not only tectonic activity splitting the earth apart as is described, but Rabbanic, Islamic, and Native traditions record that it was also meteorites or firey ice falling from the heavens, and there is also scientific evidene at least suggesting possible cometary or astroidal impact during this same period. Now, as significant as an event this truly was, the greatest message our ancestors tried to convey and pass down unto us are the SPIRITUAL symbols and allegories of the spiritual flood, Noah's Ark not irrationally holding every single creature on the planet but what was feasible for life afterwards and His vessel symbolizing the protection of God under faith, promise of redemption through suffering, each ancient tradition relating true history woven in legendary story-telling symbolism of their communities mission to survive. Also, there have been many other global Floods with the same social and spiritual impacts in pre-history, as well.

 

[Thief]

Are you implying that God inspired and preserved all of the original Bible free of errors except for obvious copyist and scribal errors? If you are arguing for inerrancy, please provide whatever evidence you have that the Bible is inerrant except for obvious copyist and scribal errors. If you are not arguing for inerrancy, why is it probable that guards were posted at the tomb. I gave lots of reasons why it is plausible that guards were not posted at the tomb.

Do you believe that a global flood occured, that the earth is young, and that theistic evolution is false?

I have no implication at all.

The point I am professing, with thread title in mind, would lean to whether or not the resurrection took place.

You cannot offer any testimony that the resurrection failed.
For this discussion I need not offer more than scripture reports.

The tomb is empty. Whether you think anyone was watching over it or not.
(The gospel of Matthew indicates someone was there.)

You would prefer to say there were no sightings of the Carpenter after His demise.
You can make that denial if you want to.
The gospels claim otherwise.

If you believe in life after death...you might find yourself facing these testimonies, that you deny.
Your denial is not actually aimed at me.

If you don't believe....then you are dust.
Your testimony fails when you do.

 

[Agnostic75]

The tomb is empty. Whether you think anyone was watching over it or not. (The gospel of Matthew indicates someone was there.)

One attestation is not sufficient to establish reasonable proof.

In my two part opening post, I provided a lot of evidence that reasonably proves that it is probable that guards were not posted at the tomb. You can simply accept by faith that guards were posted at the tomb, but you have not provided any other evidence that justifies your claim that guards were posted at the tomb.

Are you implying that the Bible does not contain any errors? If not, then why can't the guards be an error?

You would prefer to say there were no sightings of the Carpenter after His demise.

The title of this thread is "The empty tomb." For purposes of this thread, my only interest is providing reasonable proof that it is probable that guards were not posted at the tomb.

 

[Thief]

I think I've made my point.

 

[DeitySlayer]

You cannot offer any testimony that the resurrection failed.

No more than you can offer testimony that Mohammed was not a Prophet, or that Krishna did not incarnate himself upon Earth. You can't offer testimony on something that did not happen.

 

[DeitySlayer]

I think I've made my point.

If said point was quoting from the Bible to prove Jesus was ressurected is equal to quoting from Harry Potter to prove that Dumbledore is a wizard, then you've made the point excellently. If you were actually trying to prove something, it was rather a failure.

 

[Thief]

If said point was quoting from the Bible to prove Jesus was ressurected is equal to quoting from Harry Potter to prove that Dumbledore is a wizard, then you've made the point excellently. If you were actually trying to prove something, it was rather a failure.

Okay....let's say it's all fiction.

Many fictional stories have point and effect.

But in the case of the resurrection, are you sure, you would say it to be fictional?

After all, if someone like the Carpenter should fail to carry on beyond death,
What hope do you have?

If there is no resurrection of body.....that's one thing.
How about a spiritual existence?

 

[DeitySlayer]

Okay....let's say it's all fiction.

Many fictional stories have point and effect.

But in the case of the resurrection, are you sure, you would say it to be fictional?

After all, if someone like the Carpenter should fail to carry on beyond death,
What hope do you have?

If there is no resurrection of body.....that's one thing.
How about a spiritual existence?

No, I do not believe in a spiritual existence after death. But all this does for me is to throw this life into sharp focus and make it all the more precious and beautiful.

 

[Thief]

No, I do not believe in a spiritual existence after death. But all this does for me is to throw this life into sharp focus and make it all the more precious and beautiful.

So...it doesn't matter to you if the tomb is empty or not.

How does something of no importance to you, sharpen your thoughts?

 

[DeitySlayer]

So...it doesn't matter to you if the tomb is empty or not.

How does something of no importance to you, sharpen your thoughts?

No life after death. This is of great importance to me. It makes this life all the more focused and precious.

 

[Agnostic75]

I think I've made my point.

What point do you mean that is pertinent to this thread? The title of this thread is "The empty tomb." As I have said before, "for purposes of this thread, my only interest is providing reasonable proof that it is probable that guards were not posted at the tomb."

When skeptics start threads about the global flood, the Ten Plagues in Egypt, and the empty tomb, all of which are questionable claims, they are not directly arguing against the resurrection of Jesus, they are indirectly arguing against the resurrection of Jesus. Once that it becomes evident that a religious book makes lots of false claims, other claims become suspect as well.

 

[Thief]

What point do you mean that is pertinent to this thread? The title of this thread is "The empty tomb." As I have said before, "for purposes of this thread, my only interest is providing reasonable proof that it is probable that guards were not posted at the tomb."

When skeptics start threads about the global flood, the Ten Plagues in Egypt, and the empty tomb, all of which are questionable claims, they are not directly arguing against the resurrection of Jesus, they are indirectly arguing against the resurrection of Jesus. Once that it becomes evident that a religious book makes lots of false claims, other claims become suspect as well.

So it is your quest and venture to debunk Christian faith?
And you aim to do this by insisting that the tomb was empty?
And you expect Christians to refuse the gospels because of some claim
you make that no one was keeping watch? over the tomb?
In spite of the gospel of Matthew?

 

[DeitySlayer]

So it is your quest and venture to debunk Christian faith?
And you aim to do this by insisting that the tomb was empty?
And you expect Christians to refuse the gospels because of some claim
you make that no one was keeping watch? over the tomb?
In spite of the gospel of Matthew?

And you expect Muslims to refuse the Qur'an because of some claim you make that Jesus was the Son of God? Despite the Qur'an?

A person who argues from the infallibility of his religious text is unbelievably ethnocentrically arrogant.

 

[Thief]

And you expect Muslims to refuse the Qur'an because of some claim you make that Jesus was the Son of God? Despite the Qur'an?

A person who argues from the infallibility of his religious text is unbelievably ethnocentrically arrogant.

Well...I'm not supporting Christian faith that I might be Christian.
So far...including my last post...I'm just pointing out the futility of this discussion.

And I did not claim that the Carpenter is the son of God.
(All who recite the Lord's Prayer make the same claim)

And...later on...as we stand before God...the angels...and the prophets....
the nay saying will be left at the door.

And as an atheist...are you really attempting to use scripture...of any kind...as your own?

 

[DeitySlayer]

And as an atheist...are you really attempting to use scripture...of any kind...as your own?

I am merely pointing out that by rejecting all other world religions and their supernatural claims, you have demonstrated the unbelievable ease by which men can create artificial religions and false claims. Why should yours not be the same?

 

[Thief]

I am merely pointing out that by rejecting all other world religions and their supernatural claims, you have demonstrated the unbelievable ease by which men can create artificial religions and false claims. Why should yours not be the same?

I haven't rejected all other religions.
I just keep my beliefs.
I believe in life after death.
There is a God.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The nay saying will be left at the door.