The elephant in the room RE: illegal immigration

[Neo-Logic]

Estimates put the number of illegal immigrants between 12-20 million, or 3.8% to 6.4% of the total population of the United States. Personally, I'm for tougher enforcement of our border and keeping additional illegal immigrants out. However, enforcing existing domestic laws is also important.

The elephant in the room is how do we completely or partially expel the 3.8% to 6.4% of our population without first violating our constitutional principles and second, without the excessive use of force or serious collateral harm? If you consider illegal immigration to be cancer, it's safe to say it has metastasized quiet throughly. While saying 'enforce the exiting laws' is conceptually easy, it is nothing short of a complete logistical nightmare, and arguably next to impossible.

Short of resorting to draconian methods or pointing to other countries to pointlessly show how much worse illegal immigrants have it there, what practical and constitutional methods are there to get the job done? It's safe to say that it has to be a moderation between Arizona's extreme law and the currently lax federal immigrant laws.

Thoughts?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Enforcing employment laws by punishing companies/individuals, who hire illegal immigrants at sub-minimum wage levels, would reduce the economic niche for illegal immigrants, and thus, provide less reason for them coming here in the first place.

 

[sandandfoam]

I've been an illegal. I got caught and deported

I think there should be no illegal immigration anywhere because people should be free to move as they please.

 

[Mathematician]

I've been an illegal. I got caught and deported

I think there should be no illegal immigration anywhere because people should be free to move as they please.

That would be ideal, but so is an end to standing militaries. It requires a stateless globe. Illegal immigration only reinforces corruption in South America by allowing the poor to find recourse in the American political system.

 

[Neo-Logic]

Enforcing employment laws by punishing companies/individuals, who hire illegal immigrants at sub-minimum wage levels, would reduce the economic niche for illegal immigrants, and thus, provide less reason for them coming here in the first place.

Assuming that we can even constitutionally put extreme incentives for employers to not employ illegals, what does that do for the huge population of illegals now in America? Will they all flee back to Mexico's drug-infested and violent atmosphere? I highly doubt it. Will it increase crimes and force illegals to resort to criminal enterprise if we take away all semblance of a meaningful and honest employment away from them all?

I also wonder what this would do for amnesty claims. It would be a very compelling amnesty claim to point out the fact that forced deportation to certain parts of Mexico is inhumane given its current murder rates and violence.

 

[Neo-Logic]

Stephen, as Gene pointed out, let's ground ourselves in bits of reality while we tackle this conceptually. =P

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Assuming that we can even constitutionally put extreme incentives for employers to not employ illegals, what does that do for the huge population of illegals now in America?

The laws are already there. They just need to be enforced. What it does for the population of illegals, is to take away much of their employment opportunities.

Will they all flee back to Mexico's drug-infested and violent atmosphere? I highly doubt it. Will it increase crimes and force illegals to resort to criminal enterprise if we take away all semblance of a meaningful and honest employment away from them all?

It's hard to say what would happen, however, most people are not criminals, and do not resort to crime, even while impoverished. Regardless, it's a first step to eliminating the opportunities for so many illegals, while at the same time, reducing the exploitation of so many people by being extremely underpaid.

I also wonder what this would do for amnesty claims. It would be a very compelling amnesty claim to point out the fact that forced deportation to certain parts of Mexico is inhumane given its current murder rates and violence.

Deportation is no kind of solution considering the numbers of illegal aliens living in the US. It is simply not feasible. It should, however, be strictly enforced for criminals who are found to be illegals.

All these people come and go based on various economic factors. I say, take away these jobs, and people will figure out where to go that will be the most beneficial for them. If people can't sustain an existence here, then they'll figure out how to deport themselves.

 

[DeitySlayer]

I find it hugely ironic that the United States tries to stem immigration given that it is a state built itself of immigration and the overruning of the previous cultural system.

 

[Neo-Logic]

I find it hugely ironic that the United States tries to stem immigration given that it is a state built itself of immigration and the overruning of the previous cultural system.

Past is the past, we learned from it, we teach our children about it in the history books. And Mr. I'm from London -- at least we have a 'written' constitution to deal with election problems ... hehe couldn't resist.

 

[MissAlice]

I find it hugely ironic that the United States tries to stem immigration given that it is a state built itself of immigration and the overruning of the previous cultural system.

Yes but that's our little secret.

Shhhhh...

 

[Neo-Logic]

ATS,

I don't know man. To me, if you put the current laws through the wringer and actually enforce it so that 12-20 million illegals cannot have a 'legitimate' source of income, I can't help but think it will increase crime or have horrible backlash more than it would force people to seriously consider returning to Mexico -- where they equally have no chance of employment and are more likely to get screwed by government, reality, and cartels.

 

[Neo-Logic]

Yes but that's our little secret.

Shhhhh...

It's not such a secret when it's in our history books and is made a mandatory part of our children's curriculum k-12. Trail of tears, hellooooo

 

[Kilgore Trout]

ATS,

I don't know man. To me, if you put the current laws through the wringer and actually enforce it so that 12-20 million illegals cannot have a 'legitimate' source of income, I can't help but think it will increase crime or have horrible backlash more than it would force people to seriously consider returning to Mexico -- where they equally have no chance of employment and are more likely to get screwed by government, reality, and cartels.

I don't know either, but it seems to be the one way of addressing the issue whereby you're not actually "attacking" illegal immigrants.

And, you wouldn't have to do it all at once, but rather, start with a few larger companies that you could fine, and slowly increase the amount of enforcement. See what effects, if any, start to happen, and then adjust as needed.

I don't think there is an ideal solution, but elminating companies' free-reign to engage in ultra-low wage employment is a good first-step that addresses a number of issues.

 

[Mathematician]

I find it hugely ironic that the United States tries to stem immigration given that it is a state built itself of immigration and the overruning of the previous cultural system.

All current societies are built as such. Even what we consider indigenous weren't the first. The Aztects conquered and routinely destroyed cultures to expand their empire. They just didn't have the benefit of biological warfare. It's not exactly fair or smart to have open borders when that threatens society's stability and when countries like Mexico don't reciprocate. Most undocumented workers are visa overstays. They broke their agreement.

 

[Mister_T]

It's not such a secret when it's in our history books and is made a mandatory part of our children's curriculum k-12. Trail of tears, hellooooo

Ask people outside of the South Western states (and even inside the SW states) what they learned about the Mexican-American War; You'd be surprised at how many people will give you a blank expression when you tell them that the entire war was because of Americans illegally immigrating into Mexico and making settlements there.

"Mandatory" curriculum is rather selective in this country.

 

[Darkness]

Estimates put the number of illegal immigrants between 12-20 million, or 3.8% to 6.4% of the total population of the United States. Personally, I'm for tougher enforcement of our border and keeping additional illegal immigrants out. However, enforcing existing domestic laws is also important.

The elephant in the room is how do we completely or partially expel the 3.8% to 6.4% of our population without first violating our constitutional principles and second, without the excessive use of force or serious collateral harm? If you consider illegal immigration to be cancer, it's safe to say it has metastasized quiet throughly. While saying 'enforce the exiting laws' is conceptually easy, it is nothing short of a complete logistical nightmare, and arguably next to impossible.

Short of resorting to draconian methods or pointing to other countries to pointlessly show how much worse illegal immigrants have it there, what practical and constitutional methods are there to get the job done? It's safe to say that it has to be a moderation between Arizona's extreme law and the currently lax federal immigrant laws.

Thoughts?

What do you think about the research that says illegal immigration has been a positive force in fostering economic development in the United States? I haven't gotten a chance to read through the research myself. I've been too busy learning about basic economics.

 

[Falvlun]

I've given this a lot of thought since the Arizona debacle came up.

At this point, I think we should just absorb the current illegal immigrants living in the U.S. into our citizenry. That cat's already outta the bag, and as the OP pointed out, it is almost impossible to humanely stuff it back in. Basically, anyone who's been here for more than a year, and has been a contributing member of society, should get the option of fast track citizenship.

Then, I think we should a) modify our current immigration system to make it more equitable and timely, b) beef up the guest worker program, and c) strongly go after employers who still hire illegals, and people who still decide to come here illegally after all those modifications.

 

[Gunfingers]

modify our current immigration system to make it more equitable and timely

I was going to argue with this. Something like "we can't just keep taking people in, we're already overpopulated", but then i decided to actually look up population density. We're pretty far down the list, in terms of population density, and i'm confident we can handle a few more.

 

[arimoff]

Lets say all illegal immigrants get deported but are there enough Americans who are willing to take on the jobs that most of illegals do? I mean like here in NYC they do jobs witch no body else would want to do and they get paid lower then the minimum wage, who of the legal residents would be willing to do those jobs? Maybe if the wages are right but who is going to pay $15-$20 an hour to pick fruits at a vegetable store or anything similar to that?

 

[Yerda]

You could always legalise them.