The Divine Hiddenness Argument for Atheism

[rational experiences]

Most Christians believe in an interventionist god. If you believe in a deistic god, then the post doesn't apply to you.

Rationality.

The human being is first a baby and its two pre owned human being parents as self spiritual advice exist living.

The human origin is a self living in a naturally supportive environment for natural self, spiritual self origin human a spiritual self.

That self invents science, and attacks self....learns that science is evil.

Why would a human talk about Satanism and evil human being male brothers if it were not using real and truthful information?

As human advised stated fact?

If a human lives in a natural environment, that science a machine and a reaction does not own itself....natural....then if you survive an attack on natural, and natural is a huge gigantic mass...then that mass advice tells you that it kept you safe, and saved you from existing as that natural body and mass.

How a logical spiritual self, consciousness itself tells self....we came out of the eternal spirit body as a pre owned and pre formed spirit. Consciousness...who knew that the eternal spirit had caused creation to exist...and we as humans were ALWAYS the highest form in creation, just as we told self....the actual spiritual being.

Now as science was a cult male large group male chosen population agreement....when they as males and spiritual males activated science UFO mass encoded that attack by how many males were living....could have been millions.

And it is that human owned science historic feed back that has affected our psyche, ever since....seeing the human being male Adult our spiritual Father as a human did it.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I think that raising Jesus from the dead was enough. After that, anything else and we would make up a reason why it really didn't happen.

Example: A cancer was instantly left - response -- it was spontaneous regression
A tumor disappears -- it was an error in diagnosis
A paralyzed person walks - somebody paid him off
John wrote the gospel -- he really didn't write it
Luke wrote down first hand witnesses of Jesus - it is just a myth

As one who wasn't a pastor -- I wondered (as I stared into a Tom Collins) - "What about all the supposed miracles".
After I gave my life to Jesus - it was one miracle after another -- maybe I was looking in the wrong place?

The problem is that we can't determine whether Jesus rose from the dead or not. You believe he did because the bible says so. But many people don't believe the bible. There are many things that would convince me that Christianity is true.

Examples (to name just a few):

-Discovery of Bible verses on Mars

-Regeneration of a severed limb after praying for it to grow back in the name of Jesus

-Seeing someone dead climb out of a grave after having been prayed for in the name of Jesus

-God appearing out of the clouds and shouting "Jesus is Lord!"

I have never seen these things happen and I doubt you have either. So, either God exists and purposely does not do these things in order to make his existence less than obvious or God doesn't exist.

 

[rational experiences]

I think that raising Jesus from the dead was enough. After that, anything else and we would make up a reason why it really didn't happen.

Example: A cancer was instantly left - response -- it was spontaneous regression
A tumor disappears -- it was an error in diagnosis
A paralyzed person walks - somebody paid him off
John wrote the gospel -- he really didn't write it
Luke wrote down first hand witnesses of Jesus - it is just a myth

As one who wasn't a pastor -- I wondered (as I stared into a Tom Collins) - "What about all the supposed miracles".
After I gave my life to Jesus - it was one miracle after another -- maybe I was looking in the wrong place?

Did ebola unnatural bleeding from the life cell and blood occur?

Yes, witnessed.

So did the attacked named after the fact to be Jesus occur?

Yes, and it was said it was Devil associated. And radiation fall out attacks the nature, why crop circles get formed. The ancients called that attack the Devil mowing….as a simple statement.....science using PHI caused it.

As a study model after the fact.

Now if Moses said DNA life in the desert dweller Holy Land was mutated badly, the worst on Earth...then they also said eventually mutations will be removed. And it was proven correct. And they said that the new born babies murdered in ancient science radiation Temple pyramid fall out would be given back their lives.

And they were....the claim every December ICE re snap froze and assisted Earth cooling mechanism as a sea of the son......you know SON...I own the life of a human being baby male as that Son...and my ancient evil minded God Father studier invented science and sacrificed my holy life....as a human.

That sort of correct scientific self advice.

So when the newly formed, life baby returned DNA healed......science said and watch the evil adults who become the male Destroyer and attack us again in science.

And they did, just as foretold....for the invention of science and human genetic evolution was a story that said, every time humans re evolve their consciousness they turn into the God Destroyer and then prove it.

Nuclear science is named anciently as Satanism.

So they foretold....after Jesus the baby life re sacrificed and died at 33AD heals again and returns......the story will get told. So lots of males in DNA male adult memory claim....once I was living in the times of the Jesus life sacrificed and I have returned owning healthy DNA.

What all the males claiming to be Jesus are saying. Seeing little children have proven total pre lived DNA human memory as adults...and told the whole life ancient lived adult self....as that proof that reincarnation is actual...the same DNA re lived again and remembers living before.

What the claim is.

So if you were living as the returned healed baby self...and did not get irradiated....then as you returned from DNA death...and still lived on after and was not life sacrificed as some brothers were....then you were the storyteller...writer of the bible, owning all the memories and male reasoning for telling the story AFTER THE FACT of being attacked.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sometimes we just don't want to admit to what we see, even when the elephant is in the room.

Do you see an elephant in the room where you are?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Honest Question: Is there a fault in reasoning for Theists who ( like me ) don't believe in Angels and Demons the way you have described them, and they ( me ) agree that free-will is greatly diminished if God were obvious and overt?

I'd be very interested to know why you think that free-will would be diminished. What about God making himself obvious and overt automatically makes him worthy of worship? People would still have the free will to deem God unworthy of their worship.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I think that raising Jesus from the dead was enough. After that, anything else and we would make up a reason why it really didn't happen.

Example: A cancer was instantly left - response -- it was spontaneous regression
A tumor disappears -- it was an error in diagnosis
A paralyzed person walks - somebody paid him off
John wrote the gospel -- he really didn't write it
Luke wrote down first hand witnesses of Jesus - it is just a myth

As one who wasn't a pastor -- I wondered (as I stared into a Tom Collins) - "What about all the supposed miracles".
After I gave my life to Jesus - it was one miracle after another -- maybe I was looking in the wrong place?

I think that raising Jesus from the dead was enough

Perhaps it might be if God raised Jesus from the dead every generation and in front of everyone, instead of just a handful of people in one corner of the world. But for God to do it just once 2000 years ago for a small select group of people and expect it to be 'enough' for anyone other than that small group of people, suggests that God is extremely naive.

 

[Samael_Khan]

It is obvious to anyone (including theists) that if God exists, then he's certainly not doing everything he can to make his existence obvious. For instance, he could write bible verses in the sky, shout in a loud voice, or perform immediate and unambiguous miracles in response to prayers. But, we don't see these things occur, and any event attributed to being an "act of God" is both rare and ambiguous. If God exists and is omnipotent, then it's clear he could be doing more to make his existence an obvious fact. This implies that either God is purposely hiding himself or (the simpler explanation) he doesn't exist. And, when there are two competing explanations for a phenomenon, the simpler one is typically correct.

Some theists attempt to answer this argument by claiming that if God made his existence obvious, then people would no longer have the freedom to make the choice to worship him or rebel against him i.e. everyone would be forced to worship God and free will would no longer exist. But this certainly doesn't follow. Consider the fact that the majority of theists also believe in supernatural beings called demons, as well as a "Satan" which once were angels of God but chose to rebel against him even after observing his unambiguous existence in all of its glory and power. If theists believe that the free will of these demons was not violated by seeing unambiguous evidence for the existence of God, then humans' free will to accept God or rebel against him would not be undermined by God making his existence more obvious. So, this explanation fails.

The only other explanation a theist would offer is that God works in "mysterious ways" and that he must have a good reason for making his existence less than obvious. But, this is not an explanation. A god that acts as if he doesn't exist is functionally equivalent to being non-existent. It is more reasonable to assume that God doesn't exist rather than to assume that God exists and purposely hides his existence, just as it is more reasonable to assume that my closet does *not* contain invisible fairies that hide their existence from me than it is to accept that these invisible fairies exist.

If there is a God, then he certainly doesnt want to make his existence obvious. But as a result he then gives no solid evidential reason for us to believe in him. So he shouldnt get upset when people follow other gods because they have just as much reason to believe in those gods as in him. And it would be unreasonable for him to punish people for not believing in him.

 

[Heyo]

It is obvious to anyone (including theists) that if God exists, then he's certainly not doing everything he can to make his existence obvious. For instance, he could write bible verses in the sky, shout in a loud voice, or perform immediate and unambiguous miracles in response to prayers. But, we don't see these things occur, and any event attributed to being an "act of God" is both rare and ambiguous. If God exists and is omnipotent, then it's clear he could be doing more to make his existence an obvious fact. This implies that either God is purposely hiding himself or (the simpler explanation) he doesn't exist. And, when there are two competing explanations for a phenomenon, the simpler one is typically correct.

I see divine hiddenness more as an argument for Agnosticism. An atheist may refer to Occam's razor to argue that it is more rational to not believe in a hidden god but the Agnostic can directly deduce ignorance from lack of evidence.

 

[England my lionheart]

Does the child in India believe there is a God? Or is it you that we are talking about?

I mean the child,there are many on the streets in India,I'm using him as an example,he's been abandoned,no parents to care for him,no food other than from begging,his bed is two sheets of newspaper,how come the elephant doesn't help him?.

 

[Seek truth]

It is obvious to anyone (including theists) that if God exists, then he's certainly not doing everything he can to make his existence obvious. For instance, he could write bible verses in the sky, shout in a loud voice, or perform immediate and unambiguous miracles in response to prayers. But, we don't see these things occur, and any event attributed to being an "act of God" is both rare and ambiguous. If God exists and is omnipotent, then it's clear he could be doing more to make his existence an obvious fact. This implies that either God is purposely hiding himself or (the simpler explanation) he doesn't exist. And, when there are two competing explanations for a phenomenon, the simpler one is typically correct.

Some theists attempt to answer this argument by claiming that if God made his existence obvious, then people would no longer have the freedom to make the choice to worship him or rebel against him i.e. everyone would be forced to worship God and free will would no longer exist. But this certainly doesn't follow. Consider the fact that the majority of theists also believe in supernatural beings called demons, as well as a "Satan" which once were angels of God but chose to rebel against him even after observing his unambiguous existence in all of its glory and power. If theists believe that the free will of these demons was not violated by seeing unambiguous evidence for the existence of God, then humans' free will to accept God or rebel against him would not be undermined by God making his existence more obvious. So, this explanation fails.

The only other explanation a theist would offer is that God works in "mysterious ways" and that he must have a good reason for making his existence less than obvious. But, this is not an explanation. A god that acts as if he doesn't exist is functionally equivalent to being non-existent. It is more reasonable to assume that God doesn't exist rather than to assume that God exists and purposely hides his existence, just as it is more reasonable to assume that my closet does *not* contain invisible fairies that hide their existence from me than it is to accept that these invisible fairies exist.

If God was visible then there would be no reason for us to live on earth.
Us living on this earth is a test from God.
God gave us the choice to to obey his commands which will lead us to paradise and if we don't it will lead us to hell.

God sent messengers with the message to believe in one god without a partner. If we do, we need to follow his commands.

The biggest prove of his existence is the Quran (=words of God) which has never been changed since more than 1400 years ago. The Quran itself is a miracle (the biggest miracle).

Some Reasons Why The Qur’an is A Miracle:

• It contains many Scientific Statements even though it has remained exactly the same for over 1400 years - This is accepted by everyone !

For Example It Describes:
 Embryology (How a baby forms – Read Prof. Keith Moore)
 The Big Bang Theory (The Start of The Universe)
 The Expanding Universe
 How Gravity Works (Planets 'Swim' in Orbits)
 The Construction of Mountains
 The Water Cycle (Formation of Clouds)
 Pain receptors in the skin

• It contains God’s challenge - to try and produce even one chapter like it. This still stands today !
• It was given to a man who could neither read nor write.
• It’s words have the effect of changing peoples’ lives.
• It does not contain a single contradiction despite the fact it was revealed over a period of 23 years.
• It has produced ‘The Largest Practised Religion’ of about 1.7 billion followers and ‘The Fastest Growing Religion’.

The Qur’an contains Good News and a Warning.
For those who worship The One Almighty God and follow the example of The Messengers of God, there is Good News of success in this life as well as Eternal Paradise in The Hereafter. Those who reject the message are warned of The Hell-fire. The Messengers of Almighty God include:
Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them).

 

[Kenny]

The problem is that we can't determine whether Jesus rose from the dead or not. You believe he did because the bible says so. But many people don't believe the bible. There are many things that would convince me that Christianity is true.

Thus the proof in the tasting of the pudding. Doesn't matter what one says, if one doesn't want to accept truth, one won't.

All they had to do was produce the body and the rapid fire tornado would have immediately ceased.

Lee Strobel and J. Warner Wallace didn't believe "because the Bible says so" -- these were atheists who set out to disprove the Bible.

Personally, I went through the approach of "Either the Bible is true or false. I will start with they hypothesis that it is true and test the sucker. I will find out soon enough if it is false".

 

[Kenny]

Do you see an elephant in the room where you are?

Posters in the RF

 

[Kenny]

I think that raising Jesus from the dead was enough

Perhaps it might be if God raised Jesus from the dead every generation and in front of everyone, instead of just a handful of people in one corner of the world. But for God to do it just once 2000 years ago for a small select group of people and expect it to be 'enough' for anyone other than that small group of people, suggests that God is extremely naive.

Only one sacrifice for the sins of mankind was enough.

 

[Kenny]

I mean the child,there are many on the streets in India,I'm using him as an example,he's been abandoned,no parents to care for him,no food other than from begging,his bed is two sheets of newspaper,how come the elephant doesn't help him?.

Because we are the elephants, set by God, to help them. What are you doing to help the poor?

15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”
16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest.
17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’
18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain.
19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.” ’
20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’
21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Honest Question: Is there a fault in reasoning for Theists who ( like me ) don't believe in Angels and Demons the way you have described them, and they ( me ) agree that free-will is greatly diminished if God were obvious and overt?

I think so, yes.

Edit: I think the mistake that you and others are making is that you confuse "obvious choice" with "no choice." They aren't the same thing.

 

[Revoltingest]

Posters in the RF

Consider what you see, ie, no elephants.
Thus you don't believe in elephants in your room.
This is how it is with my not believing in gods in my universe.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

It is obvious to anyone (including theists) that if God exists, then he's certainly not doing everything he can to make his existence obvious. For instance, he could write bible verses in the sky, shout in a loud voice, or perform immediate and unambiguous miracles in response to prayers. But, we don't see these things occur, and any event attributed to being an "act of God" is both rare and ambiguous. If God exists and is omnipotent, then it's clear he could be doing more to make his existence an obvious fact. This implies that either God is purposely hiding himself or (the simpler explanation) he doesn't exist. And, when there are two competing explanations for a phenomenon, the simpler one is typically correct.

Some theists attempt to answer this argument by claiming that if God made his existence obvious, then people would no longer have the freedom to make the choice to worship him or rebel against him i.e. everyone would be forced to worship God and free will would no longer exist. But this certainly doesn't follow. Consider the fact that the majority of theists also believe in supernatural beings called demons, as well as a "Satan" which once were angels of God but chose to rebel against him even after observing his unambiguous existence in all of its glory and power. If theists believe that the free will of these demons was not violated by seeing unambiguous evidence for the existence of God, then humans' free will to accept God or rebel against him would not be undermined by God making his existence more obvious. So, this explanation fails.

The only other explanation a theist would offer is that God works in "mysterious ways" and that he must have a good reason for making his existence less than obvious. But, this is not an explanation. A god that acts as if he doesn't exist is functionally equivalent to being non-existent. It is more reasonable to assume that God doesn't exist rather than to assume that God exists and purposely hides his existence, just as it is more reasonable to assume that my closet does *not* contain invisible fairies that hide their existence from me than it is to accept that these invisible fairies exist.

I want to poke an immediate hole in this theory. The flaw is that because God can appear to us, that means God must appear to us. So I'm gonna use an analogy.
If You Live in These Super Remote Areas, You Might Run Into a Celebrity
Taylor Swift lives in a small town. Westerly, RI. However, if you live in there, you'll find out that she lives in a big mansion and mainly goes to her favorite places. She hangs out with her fans, young rich people, Taylor Swift is less of a snob and more of a goofy cat lady than most. All the same... you won't necessarily find her working part-time as a waitress. You won't likely see her going over to the Piggly Wiggly. You might see her paddleboarding or walking her beach, if you're part of either her group or share common interests. Her house has a sign saying "I knew you were trouble when you walked in... No Trespassing." Supposing she does go to town, she and most other stars find fawning and worship exhausting, so she's likely to be in disguise. She might wear a brown wig or dye her hair instead of her usual blond look. She might wear a hat and pass herself off as a boy, lowering her voice a bit. Except for those who can see through her disguise, many people in town don't notice. That's a skill many stars learn to give themselves some privacy. Despite the article title, people in her town probably haven't seen her much. This is why I have no use for the Oscars. Most of them would "like to thank the little people" but seldom mix with these people. Even the ones that live frugal lives don't necessarily like to be around middle and lower classes.

Suppose for a second that God is anything like me (it's wrong to compare God too closely to a movie star, because God actually does care for the humble folk). In this case, it's not snobbery but extreme introversion, and God is likely to stay indoors. So you ask, "If God is really here, shouldn't God want to see me?" Only, I am here, and I can't say that I would want to visit even my friends much (shyness and all) so why would I want to see someone who has no faith in me? It isn't just about you believing in God, it's about God believing in you. So tell me, an openly antagonistic person challenging God to show up, is he going to show up? He's probably gonna write "**** off" in the sky, and let you get back to your life.

This isn't to say that God actually hates you. You get what you put in though.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Rationality.

The human being is first a baby and its two pre owned human being parents as self spiritual advice exist living.

The human origin is a self living in a naturally supportive environment for natural self, spiritual self origin human a spiritual self.

That self invents science, and attacks self....learns that science is evil.

Why would a human talk about Satanism and evil human being male brothers if it were not using real and truthful information?

As human advised stated fact?

If a human lives in a natural environment, that science a machine and a reaction does not own itself....natural....then if you survive an attack on natural, and natural is a huge gigantic mass...then that mass advice tells you that it kept you safe, and saved you from existing as that natural body and mass.

How a logical spiritual self, consciousness itself tells self....we came out of the eternal spirit body as a pre owned and pre formed spirit. Consciousness...who knew that the eternal spirit had caused creation to exist...and we as humans were ALWAYS the highest form in creation, just as we told self....the actual spiritual being.

Now as science was a cult male large group male chosen population agreement....when they as males and spiritual males activated science UFO mass encoded that attack by how many males were living....could have been millions.

And it is that human owned science historic feed back that has affected our psyche, ever since....seeing the human being male Adult our spiritual Father as a human did it.

It's Schrodinger's God: simultaneously so hidden that a lack of evidence doesn't falsify theists' beliefs and also so apparent that atheists are culpable for not acknowledging him.

IMO, anyone who has a proper justification for their belief ought to be able to explain what that justification is.

 

[dybmh]

I think so, yes.

Edit: I think the mistake that you and others are making is that you confuse "obvious choice" with "no choice." They aren't the same thing.

It becomes a false choice. Free-will is greatly reduced if the Abrahamic God is obvious and overt?

False dilemma - Wikipedia

Example: A Homeless person is dying of hunger. They walk passed a 20 dollar bill on the ground. No one is watching. Do they really have a choice whether or not to pick it up? No, it's a false choice.

It's the same if the Abrahamic God is proven to exist and that the blessings and curses are real if each person chooses to obey. There really isn't choice at that point. The blessings are too tempting, and the curses are too painful. As soon as those become real and obvious for everyone, there is no choice.

 

[Audie]

Do you see an elephant in the room where you are?

'coz, if so......