The Divine Hiddenness Argument for Atheism

[dybmh]

define "free-will"

I ask because some loons take it to such extremes as to claim there is no free will because if you choose to fly and cannot fly you cannot have free will.

Good question... it goes back to choice.
Will... Ratzon in Hebrew, has 2 dimensions. The lower dimension is connected to pleasure. When a person chooses to have a pastrami on rye vs. a PB&J because they prefer one over the other, that's the lower more earthy, materialistic dimension of will. The higher level involves faith and self sacrifice. When a person saves their money just in case they need it, that's the higher dimension of Will.

 

[dybmh]

@9-10ths_Penguin ,

I think u asked previously for evidence that God wants people to have Freewill? From the Abrahamic POV ( meaning God exists and the Torah is accurate ): Deuteronomy 30:19. Specifically the word "וּבָֽחַרְתָּ֙" and u will choose".

I can probably find other verses to support this idea. But it's only evidence if someone accepts the Abrahamic religion as valid.

Edit to add: another good example is Isaiah 56:4-5...

 

[McBell]

Good question... it goes back to choice.
Will... Ratzon in Hebrew, has 2 dimensions. The lower dimension is connected to pleasure. When a person chooses to have a pastrami on rye vs. a PB&J because they prefer one over the other, that's the lower more earthy, materialistic dimension of will. The higher level involves faith and self sacrifice. When a person saves their money just in case they need it, that's the higher dimension of Will.

So if God reveals himself, we will not longer be able to choose between pastrami on rye vs PB&J?
Or save money?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, I agree. I thought that this was included in the OP. For this discussion, God is hidden. Once evidence for God becomes convincing, IMHO, Free-will is compromised.

So if the evidence for God is unconvincing, how could it possibly be reasonable to believe in God?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I'm not that humble kind of agnostic. I'm an Agnostic with the position that you don't know about the existence or nature of the divine.

I can't believe nor disbelieve in the existence of something I don't know what it is.

Uhh. That's just what agnostic means. You were improperly using the term as the middle ground between theism and non theism, which it is not.

In fact due to the nature of belief no such middle ground is even possible. You believe something, or you do not. The conviction felt for your nonbelief is irelivant.

If you hold no belief in a god, you are an atheist.

If you hold the belief that a god can not be known, regardless if it exists or not, you are agnostic.

You would seem to fit both categories.

 

[dybmh]

So if God reveals himself, we will not longer be able to choose between pastrami on rye vs PB&J?
Or save money?

Now that would be ah-mazing!

 

[dybmh]

So if the evidence for God is unconvincing, how could it possibly be reasonable to believe in God?

Off topic.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Off topic.

No; precisely on topic. This is the "divine hiddenness argument for atheism" the OP talked about.

 

[syo]

Some theists attempt to answer this argument by claiming that if God made his existence obvious, then people would no longer have the freedom to make the choice to worship him or rebel against him i.e. everyone would be forced to worship God and free will would no longer exist. But this certainly doesn't follow. Consider the fact that the majority of theists also believe in supernatural beings called demons, as well as a "Satan" which once were angels of God but chose to rebel against him even after observing his unambiguous existence in all of its glory and power. If theists believe that the free will of these demons was not violated by seeing unambiguous evidence for the existence of God, then humans' free will to accept God or rebel against him would not be undermined by God making his existence more obvious. So, this explanation fails.

Wait a minute, do you compare mortal humans to immortal angels?