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The dilemma of infinity

When I was a little boy I would sometimes wonder about what looks like empty black space in a starry night sky. Did it go on forever or did it end at some point? If it ended with a border then what is on the other side of such a border I wondered?

Consequently, in adulthood I concluded that humans are finite creatures who are incapable of unraveling the mystery of infinity when it comes to the known universe. Regardless of progress in scientific discoveries the inquiry of science has never solved the dilemma in explaining whether or not, and if so how, the universe is without end. My ultimate conclusion was humankind must only have finite capabilities and therefore, unaided by some kind of Deity, will never solve the dilemma in explaining the infinity of the universe.

Therefore, I concluded I must look to see what is offered in the realm of religion for answers since, as far as I could tell, only in that realm is infinity seriously dealt with, not only in regard to the universe but in regard to human existence as well. The dilemma then became the many human definitions of the nature of religion and conflicting human interpretations found even within a single religion.

Happily, I discovered the most recent religion on the scene that explains that all the major religions are part of a divine process which is referred to as progressive revelation by Messengers or Prophets sent by God.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
When I was a little boy I would sometimes wonder about what looks like empty black space in a starry night sky. Did it go on forever or did it end at some point? If it ended with a border then what is on the other side of such a border I wondered?

Consequently, in adulthood I concluded that humans are finite creatures who are incapable of unraveling the mystery of infinity when it comes to the known universe. Regardless of progress in scientific discoveries the inquiry of science has never solved the dilemma in explaining whether or not, and if so how, the universe is without end. My ultimate conclusion was humankind must only have finite capabilities and therefore, unaided by some kind of Deity, will never solve the dilemma in explaining the infinity of the universe.

Therefore, I concluded I must look to see what is offered in the realm of religion for answers since, as far as I could tell, only in that realm is infinity seriously dealt with, not only in regard to the universe but in regard to human existence as well. The dilemma then became the many human definitions of the nature of religion and conflicting human interpretations found even within a single religion.

Happily, I discovered the most recent religion on the scene that explains that all the major religions are part of a divine process which is referred to as progressive revelation by Messengers or Prophets sent by God.

The Universe is infinite? I thought it was just indefinite. But yes it is very great and beautiful to behold.

With progressive revelation, do not all of these previous religion contradict each other harshly? I agree that there is a divine pedagogy with progressive revelation, although I think it is only present in one religion.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Regardless of progress in scientific discoveries the inquiry of science has never solved the dilemma in explaining whether or not, and if so how, the universe is without end. My ultimate conclusion was humankind must only have finite capabilities and therefore, unaided by some kind of Deity, will never solve the dilemma in explaining the infinity of the universe.

Therefore, I concluded I must look to see what is offered in the realm of religion for answers since, as far as I could tell, only in that realm is infinity seriously dealt with
Have you tried to look at what mathematics has to say about infinities?
 
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The Universe is infinite? I thought it was just indefinite. But yes it is very great and beautiful to behold.

With progressive revelation, do not all of these previous religion contradict each other harshly? I agree that there is a divine pedagogy with progressive revelation, although I think it is only present in one religion.
IMO The principle of progressive revelation can best be understood in the context of an educational model. In an analytical sense principles found in earlier religions coincided with what capacity humans had at the time of their appearance. For example, earlier religions could be likened to basic arithmetic but in later religions higher mathematics came into play such as algebra or trigonometry. Thus the capacity of humankind has increased from earlier times.

Also, problems occur in religions when covenants are broken or misunderstood. IMO an example of this can be found in the New Testament of the Bible when some Christians thought the Christian Covenant was based on the faith of Peter in Jesus rather than on the person of Peter.that whatsoever he bound on earth was bound in heaven. Thus the horrid conflict between Catholic and Protestant Christianity ensued. The same kind of divide occurred in Islam between Sunni and Shea branches.over the Covenant established by Mohammad. And what about the Christian Crusades against Islam? Did it coincide or agree with the spiritual Teachings of Christ? I think not!
 
Have tried to look at what what mathematics has to say about infinities?
I have no idea what mathematics has to say about infinities. Perhaps since my knowledge of same is deplorable can you enlighten me?

What I see dividing the world more and more presently is politics. Then what I observe in the daily news regarding hate crimes is also depressing. More and more I resort to watching football.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I have no idea what mathematics has to say about infinities. Perhaps since my knowledge of same is deplorable can you enlighten me?

What I see dividing the world more and more presently is politics. Then what I observe in the daily news regarding hate crimes is also depressing. More and more I resort to watching football.
Infinity is very hard to understand, sometimes even for mathematicians. But they at least have figured out some rules to calculate with infinities and some are counter-intuitive.
A simple example: Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the tortoise. Achilles, known as the fastest runner in antiquity, is to race a tortoise. The race goes over 100 paces but the tortoise gets a head start of 10 paces.
So, for to win, Achilles has first to run up to the point where the tortoise started at 10 paces. But in that time the tortoise has already moved 1 pace further.
Achilles now moves to that point. And the tortoise has moved again.
You can play that game infinite times and Achilles will never close up to the tortoise. How can that be?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
empty black space in a starry night sky. Did it go on forever or did it end at some point? If it ended with a border then what is on the other side of such a border
What if the universe is a hypersphere, a three-dimensional surface of a four dimensional ball? Then it has no boundaries, any more than than the surface of a sphere has in three dimensions. That's roughly how physics sees it.
Happily, I discovered the most recent religion on the scene that explains that all the major religions are part of a divine process which is referred to as progressive revelation by Messengers or Prophets sent by God.
Do they have the slightest clue about real physics?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
When I was a little boy I would sometimes wonder about what looks like empty black space in a starry night sky. Did it go on forever or did it end at some point? If it ended with a border then what is on the other side of such a border I wondered?

Consequently, in adulthood I concluded that humans are finite creatures who are incapable of unraveling the mystery of infinity when it comes to the known universe. Regardless of progress in scientific discoveries the inquiry of science has never solved the dilemma in explaining whether or not, and if so how, the universe is without end. My ultimate conclusion was humankind must only have finite capabilities and therefore, unaided by some kind of Deity, will never solve the dilemma in explaining the infinity of the universe.

Therefore, I concluded I must look to see what is offered in the realm of religion for answers since, as far as I could tell, only in that realm is infinity seriously dealt with, not only in regard to the universe but in regard to human existence as well. The dilemma then became the many human definitions of the nature of religion and conflicting human interpretations found even within a single religion.

Happily, I discovered the most recent religion on the scene that explains that all the major religions are part of a divine process which is referred to as progressive revelation by Messengers or Prophets sent by God.
Infinity is not a scientific or religious concept. It comes from mathematics.

It is well understood, albeit a strange concept.
If you add one to infinity the answer is infinity.
Have you heard about the paradox of the infinite hotel?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
When I was a little boy I would sometimes wonder about what looks like empty black space in a starry night sky. Did it go on forever or did it end at some point? If it ended with a border then what is on the other side of such a border I wondered?

Consequently, in adulthood I concluded that humans are finite creatures who are incapable of unraveling the mystery of infinity when it comes to the known universe. Regardless of progress in scientific discoveries the inquiry of science has never solved the dilemma in explaining whether or not, and if so how, the universe is without end. My ultimate conclusion was humankind must only have finite capabilities and therefore, unaided by some kind of Deity, will never solve the dilemma in explaining the infinity of the universe.

Therefore, I concluded I must look to see what is offered in the realm of religion for answers since, as far as I could tell, only in that realm is infinity seriously dealt with, not only in regard to the universe but in regard to human existence as well. The dilemma then became the many human definitions of the nature of religion and conflicting human interpretations found even within a single religion.

Happily, I discovered the most recent religion on the scene that explains that all the major religions are part of a divine process which is referred to as progressive revelation by Messengers or Prophets sent by God.
TL DR: Science doesn't know everything so I proffered the dogmatic certainty religion has to offer since for me any answer is easier than dealing with the uncertainty of the unknown.

PS The Baha'i Faith is not the most recent religion, there is Ahmadiyya, Scientology, and many more lesser known religions.

In my opinion.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
When I was a little boy I would sometimes wonder about what looks like empty black space in a starry night sky. Did it go on forever or did it end at some point? If it ended with a border then what is on the other side of such a border I wondered?

Consequently, in adulthood I concluded that humans are finite creatures who are incapable of unraveling the mystery of infinity when it comes to the known universe. Regardless of progress in scientific discoveries the inquiry of science has never solved the dilemma in explaining whether or not, and if so how, the universe is without end. My ultimate conclusion was humankind must only have finite capabilities and therefore, unaided by some kind of Deity, will never solve the dilemma in explaining the infinity of the universe.

Therefore, I concluded I must look to see what is offered in the realm of religion for answers since, as far as I could tell, only in that realm is infinity seriously dealt with, not only in regard to the universe but in regard to human existence as well. The dilemma then became the many human definitions of the nature of religion and conflicting human interpretations found even within a single religion.

Happily, I discovered the most recent religion on the scene that explains that all the major religions are part of a divine process which is referred to as progressive revelation by Messengers or Prophets sent by God.

What's the dilemma with infinity?
What's the dilemma with contradicting religions?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I too used to try and imagine a physical infinity as a child. I could never manage it but was sure i got close to the edge on a clear night.

I came to the conclusion that we humans were incapable of imagining infinite space

I heard a scientist once say, infinity in maths is a concept and useful tool but if you have to invoke infinity in physics then something has gone terribly wrong.

Andre Linde and his Stanford colleague Vitaly Vanchurin calculated the number of all possible universes to be about 10^10^16 universes that we as humans can comprehend as universes. If we add universes that are inconceivable to us there could be as many as 10^10^10^7 universes. And still no infinity.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
When I was a little boy I would sometimes wonder about what looks like empty black space in a starry night sky. Did it go on forever or did it end at some point? If it ended with a border then what is on the other side of such a border I wondered?

Consequently, in adulthood I concluded that humans are finite creatures who are incapable of unraveling the mystery of infinity when it comes to the known universe. Regardless of progress in scientific discoveries the inquiry of science has never solved the dilemma in explaining whether or not, and if so how, the universe is without end. My ultimate conclusion was humankind must only have finite capabilities and therefore, unaided by some kind of Deity, will never solve the dilemma in explaining the infinity of the universe.

Therefore, I concluded I must look to see what is offered in the realm of religion for answers since, as far as I could tell, only in that realm is infinity seriously dealt with, not only in regard to the universe but in regard to human existence as well. The dilemma then became the many human definitions of the nature of religion and conflicting human interpretations found even within a single religion.

Happily, I discovered the most recent religion on the scene that explains that all the major religions are part of a divine process which is referred to as progressive revelation by Messengers or Prophets sent by God.
Well, the jury is still out for what concerns the infinity of the Universe. Since it appears to be flat on large scale, then it seems to have infinite extension. And if that is the case, and if there can only be a finite way to arrange things, then there will also be infinite instances of me out there. Even theists versions thereof, Thor forbid.

Ciao

- coil
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Every mathematics student needs to understand the basics of infinity at some point. And it really isn't that difficult *if* you get the right definitions.

But there are 'paradoxes' involved: facts that are NOT contradictions, but *do* contradict our initial intuitions. That simply means you need to grow new intuitions.

For some examples of the complexities involved:

Imagine a line segment of finite length. How many points are on it? Well, between any two points, there is a mid point, and it is easy enough to see that the number of points corresponds to no counting number: it is infinite.

So, is the line segment finite or infinite? And the answer is that it is finite in length and infinite as a set of points.

All this means is that you need to be precise about your questions. You can't simply ask 'is this infinite?'. You have to ask in which *property* it is infinite: length, area, size of the set of points, etc.

Next, the notion of 'boundedness' is often brought up. Something 'bounded' is seen to be finite and 'unbounded' is infinite. And that is a really, really bad definition.

For example, that line segment is 'bounded'. It has edge points. But is a circle (the circle itself) bounded or unbounded? While the circle is the boundary of the disk, the circle itself is NOT bounded by some boundary. The same can be said of a spherical surface. And there are higher dimensional analogs of these, allowing for 'curved space' that is finite (in volume) and has no boundary.

So, would a finite volume space with no boundary be 'finite' or 'infinite'? It would certainly have an infinite collection of points (infinite in terms of size of set of points), it has a finite volume, and it has no boundary (one definition of being infinite).

Once again, there is a requirement to say which property you are talking about. And it is a good to separate out 'unbounded' from 'infinite'. Most people, when talking about infinite space are interested in the volume: is it finite or infinite? The fact that you can have 'curved space' that has no boundary and is still of finite volume is not noticed.

The next fact about infinite sets is that they don't work the same as finite sets do. Which should be no surprise, right?

Take the set of counting numbers:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ....

Now, take "half of it", the set of even numbers:

2, 4, 6, 8, 10, ...

The two sets have the same 'number' of things in them. it is possible to pair off everything from the first set with everything from the second:

1 <--> 2
2 <--> 4
3 <--> 6
4 <--> 8
5 <--> 10
....
....
....

So, even though the set of even numbers is 'half the size' of the set of counting numbers, they are *also* the 'same size' because they can be paired off like this.

Once again, the point is that you need to be precise in your questions and answers. As *sets*, they are the 'same size'. As subsets of the counting numbers, we can look at 'density' and the density of the even numbers is 1/2 while that of all the counting numbers is 1.

I have to go to work, but I'll be back with more.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
When I was a little boy I would sometimes wonder about what looks like empty black space in a starry night sky. Did it go on forever or did it end at some point? If it ended with a border then what is on the other side of such a border I wondered?

Consequently, in adulthood I concluded that humans are finite creatures who are incapable of unraveling the mystery of infinity when it comes to the known universe. Regardless of progress in scientific discoveries the inquiry of science has never solved the dilemma in explaining whether or not, and if so how, the universe is without end. My ultimate conclusion was humankind must only have finite capabilities and therefore, unaided by some kind of Deity, will never solve the dilemma in explaining the infinity of the universe.

Therefore, I concluded I must look to see what is offered in the realm of religion for answers since, as far as I could tell, only in that realm is infinity seriously dealt with, not only in regard to the universe but in regard to human existence as well. The dilemma then became the many human definitions of the nature of religion and conflicting human interpretations found even within a single religion.

Happily, I discovered the most recent religion on the scene that explains that all the major religions are part of a divine process which is referred to as progressive revelation by Messengers or Prophets sent by God.
Unity of Mankind God live outside of time! To be ADDED to the body of Jesus means you would also live outside of time! You would live for eternity!
 
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