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The differences between Luciferism and Satanism

Discussion in 'Satanism DIR' started by Fluffy, Mar 2, 2005.

  1. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

    Messages:
    7,572
    When trying to understand exactly why there is so much disagreement and misunderstanding over this, please keep the above quotation in mind. The word Satanism has been adopted and applied to many different belief systems. These belief systems are almost completely unrelated to each other in all but name and so it is often a very confusing topic to debate on because when you are arguing from one Satanist belief system, another person is arguing from another.

    There are, however, 2 main belief systems which have been pushed under the umbrella term of Satanism. Whilst I may believe that they both deserve to call themselves whatever they may wish, this is obviously totally impractical in an environment such as this since a differentiation between them needs to be made so that debate and discussion can happen in a more constructive manner. Therefore, for this purpose, I will refer to them as Luciferism and Satanism.

    Now I am not a member of either of these 2 religions but hopefully I can lay down a few of the important differences between them so that there is no more confusion.

    Luciferism
    This name is not one I have ever seen used outside of this forum. I'm shaky on using it for reasons that will become clear.

    For starters it is not a religion. It is a umbrella term for many different belief systems (such as Paganism for example but much smaller).

    It is completely decentralized and has no central or core beliefs to speak of except that they all believe in and worship the antagonist in any given religion. Now for Christianity, this would be Lucifer. However, other forms of this religion exist such as Setianism, whose followers believe in and follow the Egyptian god Set. It is for this reason that I don't like bracketing all of these religions under "Luciferism" because it implies they all have a link with Christianity which is not neccessarily true.

    Now the Temple of Set is the only organization I know of which demonstrates a form of this way of thinking on a large scale but keep in mind that any beliefs which is followed in this religion, other than the one mentioned above, are very likely to not be found in any other religion which is also under this term.

    Satanism
    As a religion, this is much easier to define. For starters it has absolutely no link whatsoever with Christianity in any form except for the Black Mass which (correct me if I'm wrong) is not practiced anymore and this was more of a political statement than a ritual of religious belief.

    The deity either takes the form of a god, a force (such as nature) or doesn't exist depending on which denomination you are dealing with. This deity is either viewed as good or neutral in terms of morality but never evil.

    All satanist denominations branch from the Church of Satan (though some Satanists claim to go back and look at the original ideas which Anton Levey based his teachings upon though I do find the idea a little spurious).

    Satanism focuses on the self (sometimes represented by the upsidedown pentacle with the 5th point, on the bottom, symbolizing the spirit being the basis for everything else). It has quite a few similarities with older religions that existed before Christianity, in ethical beliefs only, such as the Ancient Greek and Roman religions.

    Conclusion
    Not exactly comprehensive I know but hopefully this will give a good overall view of these 2 DIFFERENT trains of thought.
     
  2. DianeVera

    DianeVera New Member

    Messages:
    148
    It is not correct to say that Satanists are atheistic whereas Luciferians are theistic. Both "Satanism" and "Luciferianism" are general categories encompassing all of the following four subecategories:

    1) Primary theistic Satanists/Luciferians - those who venerate Satan/Lucifer as one's primary deity. Often, though not always, those who identify as "Luciferians" regard Satan and Lucifer as distinct entities, whereas those who identify as "Satanists" are more likely to regard Satan/Lucifer as names of the same entity, or perhaps aspects of the same entity.

    2) Secondary theistic Satanists/Luciferians - those who venerate Satan/Lucifer as part of their pantheon, but not as their primary deity. An example would be Aleister Crowley, who spoke of Satan as his "Holy Guardian Angel" and called on Satan in at least one of his published rituals (e.g. Liber Samekh), but whose primary deities were Nuit, Hadit, and Horus.

    3) Atheistic symbolic Satanists/Luciferians, including LaVeyans. By the way, LaVey did not invent symbolic Satanism. An example of a pre-LaVey symbolic Satanist is Mark Twain, who wrote at least two novels (Letters from the Earth and A Pen Warmed in Hell which featured favorable portrayals of Satan. Various other well-known writers in the 1800's wrote similar works. And, in the Oxford English Dictionary, one of the definitions of "Satanism" refers to such writers.)

    4) Theistic symbolic Satanists/Luciferians - similar to atheistic symbolic Satanists/Luciferians except that they do believe in other gods, even though they don't believe in Satan/Lucifer. Typically they combine LaVeyan Satanism with some form of modern Paganism. Examples include most of the leading members of John Allee's First Church of Satan.
     
  3. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

    Messages:
    7,572
    Whilst I definitely asserted the latter, I did not mean to imply that all Satanists were atheistic as I think I stated here:

    The reason why I have said that there is no such thing as atheistic Luciferism is because I do not see the difference between this and Satanism in all but name whereas there is a big difference between theistic Luciferism and Satanism.

    Agreed though I would say that today it is very rare to find a Satanist who does not draw all or most of his beliefs from LaVey, even if LaVey did just effectively ellaborate the ideas of others.
     
  4. DianeVera

    DianeVera New Member

    Messages:
    148
    What big differences do you see between theistic Luciferianism and theistic Satanism?

    I've run into many different varieties of both, making it hard to generalize about differences between the two.
     
  5. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

    Messages:
    7,572
    I agree that there are massive variations within Satanism and Satanism related topics so it does make dialect on them more complex. Therefore, I thought the best way to allow people to converse about these subjects more easily would be to look at the majorities in each area and see what they believed. The major difference I see is that whilst theistic Luciferians tend to believe in and follow the antagonist of a given religion (and thereby acknowledging and believing in the protagonist, ie god, as well) whilst theistic Satanists tend to follow a figure which is basically the equivilant of another religion's god and do not believe there is any balancing godlike force.

    Now whenever I pose this idea, I normally get a backlash from people who call themselves Satanists and believe in and worship the Christian Satan. My reply to them would be that it is fine if they wish to call themselves Satanists, I am merely describing a different religion which happens to share the name they have chosen. Additionally, I would point out that, generally, their beliefs are more inline with that of Luciferism and not Satanism.
     
  6. DianeVera

    DianeVera New Member

    Messages:
    148
    I personally have not noticed any significant correlation between (1) identification as theistic "Luciferian" vs. theistic "Satanist" and (2) belief vs. nonbelief in an opposing divine force. Some people in both categories do believe in such an opposing force, while others don't.

    I think the main difference between the two categories is that Luciferians typically perceive "Lucifer" and "Satan" as distinct entities wheras theistic Satanists typically perceive "Lucifer" and "Satan" as the same entity or as aspects of the same entity.
     
  7. DianeVera

    DianeVera New Member

    Messages:
    148
    To the moderators:

    Perhaps you might want to consider moving this thread to the Satanism forum (now under Modern Beliefs rather than under Secular Beliefs)?
     
  8. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Messages:
    5,917
    I've moved it.
     
  9. Era

    Era New Member

    Messages:
    128
    Fluffy , satanists don`t see Satan as the christians do . For christians , Satan is the ultimate evil , the one that everyone must fear . Christianity gave a lot of prejudices about Satan. In modern satanism , Satan is not a living god , it`s a force that gives energy to this univers . We take it as a symbol . Christians are affraid when it comes to nr.666 , but in reality this number is 9 , and is the number of humanity . If you would like , Satan is our inner force . Lucifer and Satan are not the same . Lucifer it`s seen as the prince of darkness , while Satan is the Darkness . One is the form , the other is the substance.
     
  10. DianeVera

    DianeVera New Member

    Messages:
    148
    Well, that's one way of making a distinction between "Satan" and "Lucifer." However, what you've presented here is only one view, not Satanism in general. I do agree with you that the vast majority of Satanists don't see Satan as the Christians do, but there are many different kinds of theistic Satanism.

    Anyhow, welcome to this forum.
     
  11. Era

    Era New Member

    Messages:
    128
    Diane Vera , thank you for you`re welcome ! Regard the things I have said above , I only spoked from my religion point of wiew . For a proper understanding it would be better , if here would post other people who belongs to other types of satanism.
     
  12. Cr0wley

    Cr0wley More Human Than Human

    Messages:
    204
    When Lucifer "fell", he became Satan, so shouldn't Luciferism mean believing in the ideals of Lucifer before he fell? My understanding is that Lucifer's ideals were slightly different to that of the Satan we have today, it's a more niave and revolutionary outlook. Could you also look at it this way?
     
  13. Era

    Era New Member

    Messages:
    128
    What we have today is not naive , but is revolutionary indeed . Satan existed before Lucifer , but Lucifer can not be important withount Satan . Lucifer is just a cup who holds the water ( Satan) . Believing in the ideas of Lucifer before he felt ...I don`t know . We don`t have much of information about what Lucifer believed before falling . But the major idea was the rejection of God and his ruling and I think we stiil have that in today`s luciferianism .
     
  14. MARILYN MANSON

    MARILYN MANSON New Member

    Messages:
    14
    WHAT YOU HAVE IS STILL CHRISTIANITY.BECOME ATHIEST .HAVE A DEBATE
     
  15. Ðanisty

    Ðanisty New Member

    Messages:
    5,956
    I did not find any rules about pulling out old threads and adding to them. If there is such a rule, I apologize for dragging this out.

    This is the way I've always known it to be. I've been hearing lately that Theistic Satanism and Luciferianism is the same thing and I've been confused by this. Does anyone know where the source of this mix-up is? Of this list, I would consider myself a Primary Theistic Luciferian. I do regard Lucifer and Satan as distinct entities, but I don't necessarily reject them as aspects of the same entity either. I take the stance that we cannot know those details. Personally though, I don't have any dealings with Satan anymore because it no longer suits me. I also don't see how Lucifer can be the prince of darkness. Every Luciferian that I've met agrees he's a being of light.

    I'm confused how Setians came to fall under the Luciferian title as well. Most Setians that I have met do not even like Luciferians, much less feel themselves to be in the same category.

    MARILYN MANSON, while I realize this is only my second post, as I understand it, this forum is not meant for such a debate and what you are doing is essentially preaching to us. I think you will find people more willing to partake in such a discourse in the debates forum.
     
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