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The Difference in Effectiveness Between Advertizing and Propaganda.

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by Sunstone, Mar 7, 2021.

  1. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Around 1900 to 1910, the American Tobacco Industry woke up to the fact there was an untapped market for cigarettes in America.

    By 1910, they were all advertising to it.

    An industry president described it as "a gold mine right in your front yard."

    By 1920, the market share had not budge an point. Still about 5% of the possible whole.



    That was advertising.


    In early 1920, the founder of America's propaganda industry needed a flagship client to get his company off the ground. He tapped into a frustrated Tobacco executive. Was given a chance.

    By 1930, the new market for smoking in America was somewhere North of 30% of its potential, as I recall.


    Not bad for a country boy. I could do better now, but only because the science is so much more advanced today. Based on the neurosciences and how the brain thinks. Screws you for life sometimes.

    That was propaganda.




    There are four winds from four directions striking America today, One is from inside the country.


    There is no use trying to debate this kind of thing. If you're not willing to get your hands on learning this for yourselves, you would not even be debating the thing.

    It's your choice. Just telling you like it is. There's no propaganda beat or reporter at your favorite channel.




    America has a persuasion industry. Each offers different services. They are not used for the same things. Most services are to sell things.

    They distort your views like an artist. Usually a deceptive artist, but still within that line more or less.

    Basically the art of ramping up the attractiveness of something to make it stick to make it leap out in the salad dressing section when you are looking to buy a bottle of dressing.

    Just figure out a product's slogan. If you can do that, you can take a look at their spin.

    "Increases your sex appeal". Yup. Leonardo increased Mona's mysterious sex appeal.

    I know how that's done. Only I was well trained. Sold on the business owner and executive level. They use their brains to do their jobs. They are connected with each other. Executive cross-corporation gossip. They don't like their brains being disrespected by their salesperson. Typical sale takes ten or more visits. They don't need you to take over their corporation, run it for them.

    I didn't distort the facts. Just their presentation -- and even that kept in line. Honestly, that kind of selling is like removing any distractions from how you present your product so you ramp way, way up the key selling point. It's sometimes like shining a laser on what you want your client to observe.

    You're armored against that. You were practicing the art of seeing through natural human lying by your terrible twos. Your ancestors were social predators -- like wolves -- for millions of years. So are you.​

    Propaganda is the branch that is used to control people by distorting their world. It began in America and the UK at about the same time. In America, it was at first called Propaganda by its founder.

    It was used to 'sell' cigarettes because people didn't want to smoke them. That had to change. There was money to be made! 'Let's find some way to persuade them to smoke.' Rather than just offer them the choice. That would have been the thing to do for the citizens of a democracy back then. Give them the choice, right?

    No need to distort their view of reality.

    Propaganda is the go to tool today. For everyone. Even your governments. Right from the start, that was in the industry's business plan.

    And you thought it was Hillary who was eating your kids, didn't you? That was what an amateur did just by aping what little he could see.

    Propaganda is there to divide you, ramp up your fear of someone who is your neighbor. Then ramp up their fear of you. Then into hatred. Then into anger. Then a house united against itself cannot stand.

    That's just to get you to vote for someone's side. Just vote. When did you last feel you had a real choice? At self-governance? Either side?




    There's a documentary called "The Century of the Self". Four one hour parts.






    1/6 was a propaganda-driven coup attempt to overthrown the Constitution of the American people, and it almost succeeded. It was not an adverting campaign for toothpaste. That was your wake up call and your media missed it.

    There are no reporters in America assigned to the propaganda beat.






    NOTICE TO ANYONE WHO IS NOW GOING TO TELL RFers THAT INTERNAL SOURCE IS THEIR FAVORITE CONSPIRACY THEORY...


    If you think it's your favorite conspiracy then keep your fool mouth closed on my Forum until you can credibly tell me that personally by PM. I will let you know if you are not a fool. Not you. Not after 1/6.

    My academic background and business career in this monster's own industry goes back nearly 40 years.

    You are not going to aid and abet RFers being messed with just because of your political wet dream. If you try, I will publicly and repeatedly post a dissection of your propaganda and then use your own brain to illustrate how brains can be deluded. And I may show how your infection has spread to your RF friends.

    You are an adult. You can wait without dying. I'm not going to coddle your self-appoint free speech rights. This is a private business, fool. You only have rights with your government. The one they tried to steal from us all, don't you recall?

    And then you defended them right here. On my Forum. Defended them.

    This kind of lying is so powerful, I might go after your friends anyway, if they are doing it too. Then invite you to take a look at how their brains possibly affect their treatment of their spouses and children according to up to date science on that subject.

    Don't forget to say hi if I show up on your whole family's and friend's social media websites to admire your brain and propaganda lies in public. I, too, know to divide.

    I will not push this thing too far for me, if you push RFers any little bit at all.
    County boys. We never do learn anything. We're all alike. So dumb we think everything we see is some kind of protected school zone.


    You good, decent folks are seeing one pissed off country boy defending his home town with prejudice and an appalling lack of good manners.


    If you have anything genuinely friendly to say or criticize about my country boy manners, please do. I need some deprecatory humor now. Some funny put-downs. Anything at all that does not seek to undermine my usefulness to this community as a guide and guardian. Friendly, sibling-like put downs are too rare on RF. That's how my town kept it's tyrants and their law on every one's fair side.

    That's how all small town folk deal with "power corrupts". We don't do it by storming city hall, you see. That would be too disturbing for our village idiot to observe. He might run off. Then what would could we get done with our mayor gone? He also fills the potholes, you know.

    I might need that humor least this **** battle go to my head, and I start eating too soon,. I have been so hungry since 1/6. And I have been known to leave crumbs.


     
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  2. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    It was Frenchman Jean Nicot's fault!

    And Native Americans!
     
  3. Terese

    Terese Mangalam Pundarikakshah
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    Sunstone I super admire how persistent you are in reminding everyone how our governments control and divide us, even if it seems like no one is listening. A message in the wind is still a message.

    Additionally, You got a real mean big stick that you'll beat the hell out of anyone if it means to help them understand the world :D Bless you!

    POV: You're getting a dose of Sunstone's knowledge :D

    https://images6.alphacoders.com/355/355335.jpg
     
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  4. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    I appreciate the sentimentalism, but I'd rather hear that clever put down wit of yours, dear. A country boy needs depreciating humor in his life. So much that he's likely to attempt it on his own, and without proper community supervision. Inevitably it comes out as more than modestly restrained self appreciation.

    That's when a country town unites to elect it's next mayor.
     
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  5. Terese

    Terese Mangalam Pundarikakshah
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    Ah! Yes the risks are far too immeasurable for a country boy to dabble in such humour! Wait...he's 64? ...And enjoys the feel of ants eating the leftover crumbs around his mouth?

    I think your existence requires community supervision :D
     
  6. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I have watched Century of the Self years ago. Edward Bernays was a fascinating character.

    I am a graphic designer so I know that the way we market things to people now is very different to the way it was before Bernays. Instead of just stating the facts to advertise a product, we appeal to people's emotions to get them to buy a product, which is very useful.

    You want to show that your product is environment friendly? Just use the colour green on its packaging and cardboard, nevermind that the actual product is toxic. Want to sell a fancy car? Imply that women will sleep with a man who has one. What Bernays showed was that humans in general are idiots who are easily influenced. Want to make sure that your hygiene signs capitalizes on the covid pandemic and outsells your competitors? Appeal to those who want to keep their offices classy by making the images realistic and the colours turquoise and white to represent cleanliness and class. This is what I did last year and it worked like a charm.

    Sigmund Freuds nephew was a genius! Manipulating people is an art.

    Anyway Sunstone, seems like you are late to the party on this one (I kid). If you really want to follow the white rabbit, check out the below:

    Cult Expert Steven Hassan's Freedom of Mind Resource Center

    Steve Hassan even has a book called the Cult of Trump which should be an interesting read. It shows how Trump mentally manipulates people into being loyal to him.
     
  7. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Okay this I have to read. Because like I understand Americans are very passionate about their politics, compared to a lot of places. But I remain genuinely baffled by the absolute loyalty of the super hardcore Trumpers. Maybe as a non American I missed a lot of the context by default. But still.
     
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  8. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    @Sunstone As a random aside, in my country all our tobacco products have horrendous warning labels. Pictures of what happens to fetuses (fetusi?) if a pregnant woman smokes, a guy with emphysema, the one with the cancerous lips and the pack with the cancer guy that’s considered the “lucky one” among smokers for some reason. So our propaganda is in full reverse lol
    When I worked the smoke counter I found it somewhat interesting to have people refuse certain packets because of such packaging. So it kind of worked, in a way. Even if it was to show people what their individual lines in the sand were.
     
  9. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    In my opinion, you are conflating propaganda with advertising. That's predictably human, especially when adjusting to a a new labeling of the same facts.
     
  10. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Well I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. I remember in health class they showed us an ad for smoking from like the 50s or something. That was propaganda if ever I saw it. It was also kind of creepy
     
  11. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    50s was when the Soviet technique of launching it from an African newspaper was introduced. That gave another newspaper in Europe or the in America a legitimate reason to reprint it as some leader's take on the West. That paper or magazine was a least common denominator for entry into the nation's media flow. From there it went upward until the Soviet's let it balloon on its own. "President for Life X gave a speech attacking the French discsion to deploy the Foreign legion to intervene in the...."

    It wasn't hard to identify back then. The American's were at the same game in months.

    Today, the procedure usually uses a news aggregator to give it it's final wash. Those are link sites on the net that consist of a sampling of the day's news. Nothing but links to various articles giving different takes on the same events.

    The best one I know of is Real Clear Politics' links to this or that political news. The most deceptive is the Drudge Report. Used daily by several groups. All brands invited, but only Right Wing.

    Drudge's business model, apparently. He gets paid by most of the sources he links to. That's the best way, I would guess, for deciding if an aggregator were a propaganda seed farm. When and how could this be a money making business? If it's not clear how it's paid for...
     
  12. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I don't understand it myself and I am a person who researches cults. The only things I know about that relate to cults with him is the conspiracy theories and the apparent dogwhistling.
     
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  13. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    This I’m somewhat familiar with, thanks to streamers I sometimes watch. But I mean I guess I didn’t take it all that seriously (it’s just a bunch of trolls and some loud crazies I thought to myself.) Though the “dog whistling” was quite yikes-y to say the least.
    After recent events, I feel dumb for having given the benefit of the doubt. Everything the media said about Trump has a ring of truth to it. The hyperbole wasn’t that exaggerated and the followers (at least the hardcore ones) were being assessed correctly. Does that make sense? Like I was kind of skeptical because I just assumed it was all political hyperbole.
     
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  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I felt the same way at first. I used to watch right wing videos such as Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder etc, and thought that they had a point and that people were taking Trumps words out of context. But then the Charlottesville thing happened and Trumps response made me see that he was playing some sort of vague game. Why would Neo Nazi's support Trump? Then you check it out further and they have a lot of crossover points with what he is saying. Also, and this is a big one, Trump called out South Africa for the mass killing of white farmers based on race which isn't the truth. Living in the country, I can say that that is not happening and it made me suspect of the guy.

    The tricky thing about cults and the indoctrinated is that they say ambiguous things that sound normal to the average person but has an extra layer of meaning to those in the group. So for instance "Lets make America Great again" sounds perfectly fine on its own but when one uses it in the context of Neo Nazi's and the KKK it takes on a whole different meaning. That there is the problem because then the group can say that they are innocent with no way of outsiders saying that they hold the esoteric meaning of the phrase. Once you find these words that have a different meaning in the group to the society around them as well as the ideology and argumentation of the group then one can only see what they are actually saying and find out who belongs to the group. What is cool is that once you find this out, you can tell who belongs to the group in the first minute or so of speaking to them because they use the same arguments and phrasing.

    So the reason why you gave Trump the benefit of a doubt is because what he does is designed to have that effect.
     
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  15. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Omg same. Charlottesville was insane. I actually watched a lot of the live stream footage and holy crap. Wtf is all I can say about that.
    I listened to a lot of “leftist” voices but I feel I lacked the real context in hindsight. In my country, sure politicians can game the system. But it’s like America is a whole different deal.
    I just wasn’t aware of the actual specific rhetoric though.
    That is so true. I think because I happen to follow a lot of leftist content creators I was privy to a lot of the buzzwords and “dog whistles” because they were reacting to such phenomenon themselves. So I learnt a lot of the terminology almost by accident.
    I can’t say whether or not our media is any better, but I did see a lot of media from the hardcore Trumpers online that made me weary of them. Social media and all. It was kind of interesting if I’m honest.
    Hmm. I suppose so. A part of it I think might be America’s international reputation. They are hailed as the “defender of freedoms” and then you hear that they’re following a fascist agenda. It’s rather incredulous information on face value, if I’m honest. Then you see news coverage of the insurrection and it’s like, wow, maybe I misjudged the situation lol
     
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  16. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    You should really listen to "right" voices. It is fascinating. They generally have the same viewpoints. They constantly speak about gender, SJW's, how the left is influencing movies, cancel culture and the like. Explore further in and you get the the worldwide white genocide stuff and how they want to "maintain the culture" as if culture is stagnant and not always in flux. They also bring up Orwell and Jesus a lot when in fact those two people would very much disagree with their views with Orwell being a socialist and Jesus having socialist ideals. Americas system is very different to my countries. We have loads of political parties, all with their supporters whereas America has a two party system which means easier indoctrination because having only two sides makes people prone to black and white thinking.


    I never knew about the dogwhistles because I followed the right at first. Only after watching Vaush, a socialist Youtube, was I informed of the them. The right were showing only one warped side of the argument, attacking strawmen while the left actually deals with the issues. There are also a surprisingly small amount of famous leftist voices compared to the right. I don't trust the media myself because they all have their own agenda.

    Over here in South Africa we see America as the joke of the world with idiot presidents and a bunch of stupid people, That is the impression we get from them because of their media exports which portray Americans as crazy people. Because of our history we have a distrust of government so we never considered America as the defender of freedom in the first place. That insurrection was the nail in the coffin for me. The very fact that Trumps ambiguous rhetoric lead people to want to cause an insurrection (also add in Charlottesville) pretty much proved what I had suspected about his agenda.
     
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  17. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    I have actually. Quite extensively. They infiltrated a lot of gaming spaces back when GamerGate was a thing. I was almost radicalised to the Alt right when I wasn’t in a great head space a few years back. The toxicity and hate was like..wow. Glad I left.
    Now I’m watching leftist streamers mock them almost constantly. (Hannah and Jake from the old Bible Reloaded YT channel.)
    I’ve never seen a more whiny bunch of snowflakes, if I’m honest. Constantly crying about the most trivial stuff.
    Recently one of the newer Chuds made this anti porn “dissertation” which was absolutely hilarious. Because it belied his utter lack of education and world experience. Sad that young men listen to the guy though. Smh

    Ahh good old Vaush. I agree with your assessment.
    Although I think it was HRBomberguy that introduced me to the concept of dogwhisltes. Either him or Shaun, can’t remember.
    I used to follow a lot of the old skeptics from back in the day. Only to watch them take hard right stances for a while. Which was..odd to watch ngl
    A few “redeemed” themselves. Others doubled down and a couple others reacted to their stances with incredulity. What a journey lol
    That’s fair enough. I guess Australia has a bit more positive relationship with the US. But I’ll admit that we mock them too. Especially Trump.
    But man Charlottesville still took me by surprise. The insurrection was also pretty wild.
    Crazy times we live in.
     
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  18. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I heard about Gamergate. The gaming community is actually an excellent space for the alt right to recruit from, since it contains a lot of anti social and insecure young men. They capitalize on their emotions and indoctrinate them. I think that if I wasn't wise about indoctrination already I might have gone fully into the alt right. It is crazy that you were almost radicalized and it makes sense that you were in a vulnerable position at the time. They do cry over trivial stuff. I would admit though that they do have a point in certain matters regarding what is being pushed in pop culture. But that would get into a discussion about the radical left which would be off topic.



    Vaush is awesome. He was a good intro into socialism. Shaun is also VERY good and he does long detailed videos. Which skeptics went to the hard right?

    I have been researching into these things and if we were actually paying attention we wouldn't be surprised at all. The cockroaches just came out of the woodwork. There is actually a pretty large and influential underground movement (in the sense that it is under the cultural radar) that is promoting alt right values all over the world. Here in South Africa we have people promoting the White Genocide of farmers and that is being used around the world as "proof" that the world is against white people. The Anti-muslim immigration point is also a large alt right talking point in their attempts to keep their "race pure". We should have seen this coming. And it is very very clear that they are infiltrating our governments.
     
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  19. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Yeah unfortunately it makes too much sense. It’s interesting how a lot of people were in a sense “deradicalised” by “BreadTube” voices later on. A little too telling of where people get most of their information from nowadays, imo. I more or less left on my own. Got into a better headspace, reconnected with some old friends. And viola, deradicalism complete lol
    It was surprisingly freeing.

    Very true. Vaush is often hailed as one of the main voices of “deradicalisation.”
    I like the “long detailed crowd.” Jose, Big Joel, Shaun, Renegade Cut, Three Arrows etc
    The skeptics that took a hard right or at least went a bit Alt right for a while were Sargon of Akkad, Armoured Skeptic/Shoeonhead for a while, Thunderf00t for a time, Chris Ray Gun for a time, The Amazing Atheist for a time, Computing Forever, Undoomed if I’m not mistaken, Atheism is Unstoppable and there’s another one I can’t remember. They’ve since been dubbed the Sceptic Community by detractors.
    Some have since softened and become far more left leaning like I think the Amazing Atheist is a leftie these days. Others like Sargon and Computing Forever have doubled down and gone full on right/Alt right.
    It’s a shame because I was basically introduced to the concept of skepticism by those folks when I was a kid

    True. If I was paying attention it shouldn’t have been that surprising. In hindsight the writing was on the wall.
    Wow, crazy stuff
     
  20. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    Propaganda is a subset of advertisement. It is specifically advertising a specific political ideology or policy at the behest of governments or political factions, activists etc.

    The exact same tools that are being used in successful ads can be used to make propaganda successful as well, and indeed that is often the case. A well-made promotion for a political idea, organization, or policy, is in my eyes really not functionally different from a well-made promotion for a specific product, brand, or company, and indeed a lot of modern propaganda is effectively bankrolled by business interests, often under the guise of "Think Tanks" such as the Heritage Foundation or the World Economic Forum.

    In Germany, one of the early pioneers in market and media research was Joseph Goebbel's Ministry of Propaganda - another was, arguably, the Frankfurt Institute of Social Research AKA the Frankfurt School, or what conservatives now refer to as "Cultural Marxism".

    (edit: added some stuff)
     
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