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Featured The Devil, the Serpent, Satan, and Lucifer,

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    One in the same or four different bad guys?
    .
     
    #1 Skwim, Jan 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  2. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Lucifer was an angel. When he decided to rebel against God his name was changed to Satan. A devil is a fallen angel. Satan has the ability to alter his form so he appeared to Adam and Eve as a serpent. All one being.
     
  3. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    So you're saying that Satan and the devil are different beings?

    .
     
  4. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    According to Revelation 12:9, the serpent, the Devil and Satan are all one. But no mention of Lucifer.

    "The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,"
     
  5. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    I think my post says "all one being". Satan and Lucifer are names. Devil is a description. Serpent is a physical appearane he assumed to appear to Adam and Eve.
     
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  6. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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  7. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

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    Although I did not quote him, I was replying to Skwim above who asked whether Satan and the devil were different beings.

    There is also debate over whether 'Lucifer' the morning star, is Satan or the King of Babylon. But I am not going there.
     
  8. Electra

    Electra Active Member

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    or Venus ^.^
     
  9. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Your problem there, - is that there is no name Lucifer in Tanakh.

    That was a mistranslation problem in Isaiah 14:12.

    There is no fallen angel in that text. It is a fallen Babylonian King. The text even says he is a MAN.

    Isaiah 14 starts -

    Isa 14:1 For YHVH will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

    Isa 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of YHVH for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

    The Hebrews captivity came when the king of Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in 586 B.C.

    Obviously not about a fallen angel.
    *
     
    #9 Ingledsva, Jan 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  10. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    One. It’s referring to the ego of man. The insistent self.
     
  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Actually they are not all one being.

    Satan is a Tanakh angel and servant of YHVH, whom is NOT evil.

    There is no Lucifer. - That was a mistranslation.

    The rest are drawn from many places, such as other religions, etc.

    And of course the ADDITIONS of the later Christian religion.

    Tanakh says NOWHERE - that the Genesis serpent is Satan.

    *
     
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  12. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    The name Lucifer is in question. Otherwise, the original dragon, original serpent, devil and satan all refer to one and same being. Two are somewhat translation dependent. Here are various translations showing us the most common choices.
    Revelation 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:. . .
    9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent, he who is called Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole habitable world, he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. ​
    This being and all the angels, including the fallen ones, are all older than our physical universe.
     
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  13. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    it is all the same spirit
    the names refer to different aspects

    serpent would be a note of character
    Lucifer a proper name as founder of that character
    devil as a pronoun (sort of) noting the leader as well as followers
    Satan as a title of position
     
  14. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Tanakh does NOT say the serpent is Satan, - anywhere.

    And obviously it calls Satan by his name everywhere else. Why the discrepancy if it was Satan?

    Tanakh NEVER refers to Satan as a serpent.

    Those are later additions tacked onto the Tanakh Satan.

    *
     
  15. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    FYI, "Satan" means opposer; resister. "Devil" means slanderer. In the Scriptures, both refer to the same individual.
     
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  16. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    There is not much reason, nor incentive, to discuss this with you. Since you also know what I say, yet reject this, when I say it, that too is empty.
    However, if you pay a little attention to Relation, you would see that it says 'the orignial serpent' or the 'old serpent' referring obviously to Genesis whee the Serpent deceived Eve.

    Why don't you discuss your religion instead, the creation of all means by means of your 'chaos god' !
    If you are Jewish, the Tanakh be your only source.
    If you are Christian, you have more than that, which by the way speaks of that which you object to.
    If you are atheist, you have nothing but, ehh, nothing - which became something neither of the above believes in.
     
  17. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    OH MY! LOL! I don't have any God.

    We have said over-and-over, that later add-ons to the Hebrew Satan character, means nothing. They are add-ons.

    They did not understand the Angel Satan's roll, and turned him into an evil autonomous Satan.

    They are claiming Satan fell, from a mistranslation/misunderstanding of an Isaiah verse about a human King of Babylon. It says it is a MAN in that text.

    "Christians have more than that," is rather funny, as they actually don't. They have their own NT - and a hijacked and misunderstood/mistranslated Jewish Tanakh.

    Christians have hijacked another religion's texts, and then told THEM that you know better than they, what THEIR texts mean.

    *
     
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  18. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Looking into Strong's Concordance and an etymology dictionary I see it's simply an Old English rendering of the appellation "shining one, morning star" as it appears in Isaiah 14:12

    "12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
    how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"



    Yeah, I couldn't find that association either. So those here,

    lostwanderingsoul
    Enoch07
    Grandliseur
    Thief​

    who say the serpent was Satan, what's your source for this?



    And peoples, what is to be made of plural devils if the devil is identical to Satan, a singular being?

    Leviticus 17:7
    And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

    2 Chronicles 11:15
    And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

    Mark 3:15
    And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

    1 Corinthians 10:20
    But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

    .
     
    #18 Skwim, Jan 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  19. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    ....[/QUOTE]
    Yep. That capitalized Lucifer is wrong, it actually says Héylél ben-Shaḥar.

    I think of it as - How art thou fallen from a height, oh bright rising star, son of the morning/dawn!

    Basically the same way we use it today.

    If a rock star rises to great fame, - and than does something stupid and falls.

    We say he was a rising star - that fell from the heights.

    He had it all, and through circumstance, hit rock bottom.

    *
     
  20. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the laugh. I find you perspective funny, and you are welcome to it.

    This one is even more funny - because this is also what I say - namely, that is says it is man that is being discussed; which I have pointed out before. Thus, the claim that satan is Lucifer is opposed by the scripture saying that this person is a 'man'. What I don't disagree with, however, is that many of the things said in that chapter might well be applied to satan, though there is no evidence for it.

    But, you still believe in a chaos creator, so to say. ;)
     
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