The Destruction of America

[Deeje]

I see this ties into this OP, as disunity in race aslo ties into disunity of Faith.

Disunity is man’s reality. It has been with us from the beginning when the first man born of woman, murdered his brother, not in a fit of rage but in a calculated, premeditated and deliberate action out of jealousy. Man has been killing his brother ever since.....he has been finding ways to divide and hate on racial and religious grounds down through history. It is part of our sinful nature to be self-focussed and detached from the humanity with which God created us. This is what sin produces in us...defective thinking.

The Hebrew Scriptures tell us that even God’s own nation became divided and killed one another.....why was this permitted? It’s all recorded in the Bible to show us that human nature is governed by this defective thinking....from his first act of disobedience, human nature is shown to be nothing like the way God made us.

Ever since the rebellion in Eden, God has been showing us the futility of human rulership. We lack the ability to exercise power over others without it corrupting us. How can we not see this repeated again and again down through history and still playing out even today?

Initially the nation of Israel had Jehovah as their God, their Sovereign Ruler and Lawgiver, but the people demanded a human king like the other nations had, because even though God had shown his people that he was guiding, directing and protecting them, they wanted a King that they could see. They were warned that problems would arise if a human King was at the helm, but they didn’t listen. He gave them what they wanted, but the rest, as they say, is history. Brother killed brother even though they claimed to worship the same God.

There will never be a human solution to our problems because defective sin-laden humans ARE the problem. Independence from God was doomed from the start....but we needed to experience the results....and here we still are....what has changed?

Jesus said He would come with a new Name and that the New Jerusalem would come.

Unless we understand what that means, then I believe that our expectations will come to disappointment.

Christ’s “new name” is like all his other names.....it is a description of his role, which as the Bible says, is multi-faceted. His many roles have been leading to one outcome......a return to what we lost in Eden. One race, under one God, working in unity for one common goal....to take care of this planet...it’s creatures....and each other. That was God’s original purpose and we will see it restored if we don’t fall for the mistaken assumption that humans in their present state can ever implement it.

Revelation 21:2-4 is a description of that outcome.
“2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

If you read those verses carefully, you will see that “New Jerusalem” is God’s Kingdom, with Jesus at the helm to usher in a new age....one where God’s rulership is restored to this earth and his King will make sure that every vestige of this old world, along with all who are part of the problem, (rather than supporting the solution) will have “passed away”.....they will not be part of the rebuild.

It has never been part of God’s solution to include those who don’t include him in their lives and in their worship. He has never approved of other gods or religions, as we see in the first of the 10 Commandments.....’no other gods but YHWH’. When Israel fell to worshipping other gods, he punished them.

Finding out what the scriptures of the world are actually offering, may be the key to the One fold and One Shepherd.

It may help our heal our divided mindset.

I don’t believe that the solution will ever include those who can’t or won’t see the truth. Those who come into “one fold under one Shepherd” must of necessity put away all false worship. Any who wanted to worship the God of the Bible had to leave their former worship behind......it was not permitted to carry it over into the exclusive worship of the only true God in existence. Like it or not...it’s HIS way or the highway.

Humans can’t morph God into what they think he should be.....he is not a universal God who accepts all without conditions.....he has never accepted the worship of other gods, or the practice of their religions, or writings in their scripture......ever. Can you provide evidence to the contrary from the Bible?

 

[Deeje]

I believe it has to come from Christ and efforts of men, both together.
I also believe, this promise of peace was supposed to come with Jesus, even as the Jews expected. So, it was postponed to the time of return of Christ. Bahais believe the Christ has already returned. But, I tell you, one of the fundamental of religion of God is, and has been, that He can change His plan, even as He had said before.


"One instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to uproot and to demolish and to destroy. And when that nation repents of its evil for which I spoke concerning it, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to it. And at one instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant, And it will do what is evil in My eyes, not to hearken to My voice, I will repent of the good I said to benefit it." (Jeremiah 18:7-10)

God has never changed his purpose for this earth and man’s place on it. (Isaiah 55:11)

Choosing a verse here and there from the Bible that seems to support your beliefs will do nothing if you ignore the rest of what it teaches. The whole purpose of our creation is clearly stated.....but then to try to incorporate other religious beliefs and scripture into the mix, just creates confusion and masks the purpose of our being, and the conditions that God placed on life in the first place.

Life and worship is conditional.....do you find that to be an inconvenient truth?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'd much rather see the USA continue down the road of prosperity with its tenants of freedom attracting people from all walks of life and ethnicity.

Unfortunately it's really just a nice utopian view and not very realistic because when it comes down to the end of the day like it or not, we will always and always will be a tribal species.

Whether it's fighting against racist or being racist, political or whatever, if you notice, we always and inevitably flock into tribal groups.

That's life on the planet of the apes.

I cannot agree with, sorry.

We are many things, we humans. We are a social species, but we cannot easily cope with huge numbers in our own "community." There's a limit, it would appear. And thus, the idea of tribalism is probably partly owing to our nature.

But my life's experiences have shown me (at least to my own satisfaction) that whoever isn't a "member of my community" isn't by definition therefore my enemy. It is not necessary that I fear those who I don't feel "related to" in some way.

But something else I've noticed, not only in my own growing up (because being institutionalized in Children's Aid meant my "community" consisted of a lot of people I wasn't related to, and didn't look a lot like), but also more recently in watching kids in school in my own country, Canada. Kids need to be taught to hate -- they do not come by it naturally. Watch a classroom full of white, asian, hispanic, black and indigenous kids -- they don't know they're different from one another, and they wouldn't have a clue that those differences were some sort of threat.

No, the racists, the mysoginists and all the other haters of this world were taught to be so by their parents and the community in which they grew up. And the racists, mysoginists and other haters of tomorrow will have been by their parents and community --- US.

Or maybe they don't need to be taught anything at all, and left to explore each other as children love to do. Give it a try, eh?

 

[Notanumber]

Sorry, posted in the wrong thread.

 

[osgart]

Disunity is man’s reality. It has been with us from the beginning when the first man born of woman, murdered his brother, not in a fit of rage but in a calculated, premeditated and deliberate action out of jealousy. Man has been killing his brother ever since.....he has been finding ways to divide and hate on racial and religious grounds down through history. It is part of our sinful nature to be self-focussed and detached from the humanity with which God created us. This is what sin produces in us...defective thinking.

The Hebrew Scriptures tell us that even God’s own nation became divided and killed one another.....why was this permitted? It’s all recorded in the Bible to show us that human nature is governed by this defective thinking....from his first act of disobedience, human nature is shown to be nothing like the way God made us.

Ever since the rebellion in Eden, God has been showing us the futility of human rulership. We lack the ability to exercise power over others without it corrupting us. How can we not see this repeated again and again down through history and still playing out even today?

Initially the nation of Israel had Jehovah as their God, their Sovereign Ruler and Lawgiver, but the people demanded a human king like the other nations had, because even though God had shown his people that he was guiding, directing and protecting them, they wanted a King that they could see. They were warned that problems would arise if a human King was at the helm, but they didn’t listen. He gave them what they wanted, but the rest, as they say, is history. Brother killed brother even though they claimed to worship the same God.

There will never be a human solution to our problems because defective sin-laden humans ARE the problem. Independence from God was doomed from the start....but we needed to experience the results....and here we still are....what has changed?



Unless we understand what that means, then I believe that our expectations will come to disappointment.

Christ’s “new name” is like all his other names.....it is a description of his role, which as the Bible says, is multi-faceted. His many roles have been leading to one outcome......a return to what we lost in Eden. One race, under one God, working in unity for one common goal....to take care of this planet...it’s creatures....and each other. That was God’s original purpose and we will see it restored if we don’t fall for the mistaken assumption that humans in their present state can ever implement it.

Revelation 21:2-4 is a description of that outcome.
“2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

If you read those verses carefully, you will see that “New Jerusalem” is God’s Kingdom, with Jesus at the helm to usher in a new age....one where God’s rulership is restored to this earth and his King will make sure that every vestige of this old world, along with all who are part of the problem, (rather than supporting the solution) will have “passed away”.....they will not be part of the rebuild.

It has never been part of God’s solution to include those who don’t include him in their lives and in their worship. He has never approved of other gods or religions, as we see in the first of the 10 Commandments.....’no other gods but YHWH’. When Israel fell to worshipping other gods, he punished them.



I don’t believe that the solution will never include those who can’t or won’t see the truth. Those who come into “one fold under one Shepherd” must of necessity put away all false worship. Any who wanted to worship the God of the Bible had to leave their former worship behind......it was not permitted to carry it over into the exclusive worship of the only true God in existence. Like it or not...it’s HIS way or the highway.

Humans can’t morph God into what they think he should be.....he is not a universal God who accepts all without conditions.....he has never accepted the worship of other gods, or the practice of their religions, or writings in their scripture......ever. Can you provide evidence to the contrary from the Bible?

With the coming of evil and wickedness there HAS to be conditions. That part makes a lot of sense to me. I mean if evil never existed then there would not have to be any conditions. An innocent being can't go against his own being, and why would he, that's insane!

I don't claim to understand the Bible the way you understand it. I don't understand the commands and actions of God in the OT for instance.

It is interesting to think of a world without evil and arrogancy though.

I'm not a moral relativist! There is a clear right and wrong. It's all how one defines their terms.

I see that mankind wants to be the authority and rule themselves as they please. I see a problem with having no standards though. You hear that everything is subjective, a matter of tastes and preferences. I don't agree with that because there are virtues and there are vices. I'm a moral objectivist you might say. However sometimes it is hard to know where to draw the line on mercy.

 

[Trailblazer]

The stock market is betting things will improve.
The Nearly Nihilistic Market Rally

Thanks, you just made my day , not that I was really worried, but I won't even tell you how much I have in the market, almost as much as I have in real estate....

I was worried for the first few weeks if this pandemic, but then I stopped worrying because I have been through this kind of ride before and I had a feeling it would rebound, I just did not know when... Besides, I do not need the money to live on so the worst case scenario is that I have less money to bequeath to others.

Of course, I knew things would get better eventually, because that comes with the Baha'i brand of optimism.

 

[Trailblazer]

Disunity is man’s reality. It has been with us from the beginning when the first man born of woman, murdered his brother, not in a fit of rage but in a calculated, premeditated and deliberate action out of jealousy.

But Jesus said He was going to fix that......

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And I believe that will happen during the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

The basic message of Baha’u’llah was the Unity of Mankind, meaning that we are all part of one whole and that we all proceed from the same Source, One God.

“The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

Unity does not mean we are all the same or that we all agree about everything because there is BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY.

 

[Trailblazer]

God has never changed his purpose for this earth and man’s place on it. (Isaiah 55:11)

No, God hasn't changed His Purpose..

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116
God’s Purpose

The was prophesied in the Bible.

Isaiah 11 King James Version (KJV)

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

 

[Deeje]

But Jesus said He was going to fix that......

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And I believe that will happen during the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

The basic message of Baha’u’llah was the Unity of Mankind, meaning that we are all part of one whole and that we all proceed from the same Source, One God.

“The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

Unity does not mean we are all the same or that we all agree about everything because there is BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY.

I have no interest in the words of a prophet that I do not believe God sent into the world. I do not believe that this man was in any way a returned “Christ”. He fulfilled no scripture concerning what Christ was to accomplish by his return. He was just a human with human frailties, unlike Jesus who did not have any. He died as the result of a fever....Jesus would never have died of natural causes because he was not a product of human conception.

Diversity is what God loves, as we see in nature....but division on racial and religious grounds will never be addressed as long as we live in fallen human flesh. Please don’t confuse them.

Jesus came to undo the damage caused to us by our first human father.....the reason for our appalling track record is “sin”....God did not create us this way....this ‘condition’ was chosen for us by an act of disobedience, inherited like a fatal genetic disease, but we needed to be included in the object lesson so that we can see first hand what happens when you rely on independent human thinking to rule ourselves successfully.

Ain’t never going to happen.

Christ will come as judge and prove to the world that his Father is, and always has been “the only true God” who is in control of his own creation. There is purpose in all that he has done.

It was prophesied in the Bible

Yes it was....but that had nothing to do with Bahaullah.

Baha’i tries to squeeze all religions and gods into one.....sorry, but the God of the Bible would not stand for that. He specifically told his people that their worship was to be to the exclusion of all other gods. They were punished for trying to fuse the worship of God and the worship of Baal together....they were told to choose one or the other. God’s prophet Elijah even conducted a test so that the Israelites could see that Baal was nothing but a fake impotent god.

We have to choose too.....it’s life or death. (1 Kings 18:21-46)

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no interest in the words of a prophet that I do not believe God sent into the world. I do not believe that this man was in any way a returned “Christ”. He fulfilled no scripture concerning what Christ was to accomplish by his return. He was just a human with human frailties, unlike Jesus who did not have any. He died as the result of a fever....Jesus would never have died of natural causes because he was not a product of human conception.

Spoken like a true Christian. Jesus is the Only Way for all time and eternity. Jesus is superior to any Messenger of God that ever existed. Jesus never sinned but all the other Messengers sinned. Jesus was God because He rose from the dead. I have heard it all before, for seven years and counting.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe and post whatever you want to post, but it will not change Reality. Posting on forums does not change Reality.

There is a reason why Baha'is are not worried about Christians whereas Christians are worried about Baha'is. There is also a reason why Christians attack Baha'i beliefs and Baha'u'llah whereas Baha'is do not attack Christian beliefs or Jesus, although admittedly we disagree with Christian doctrines and beliefs about the return of Christ, for obvious reasons.

I am not going to argue with you about who Baha'u'llah was because I know who He was and I have no need to convince anyone else.

Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ and the coming of the Messiah, but all the prophecies for the Messianic Age have not been fulfilled because we are only at the very beginning of that Age. It does help to use logic and reason.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I really feel a great affinity for the American people as it grapples with a number of core issues in regards identity and nation building.

Thanks... but I'm skeptical that we even know who were are. What unifies us, per your external perception? (and external opinions are important) I'm sitting here looking at the photos of maimed people from the last few days, and can't sleep.. No one seems to agree on wearing masks.. Everyday, you read or hear something about class divides.. And that last one is harsher yet in this country, where the existence of class division is often denied..

I have a great affinity for people who live monk-like existences, and get away from the massive social networks that humans form.. Does anyone live like that in new zealand, do you have hermits there

 

[Trailblazer]

I have a great affinity for people who live monk-like existences, and get away from the massive social networks that humans form..

Me too.

 

[Deeje]

Spoken like a true Christian.

Thank you.

Jesus was God because He rose from the dead.

Ah, no he was resurrected because God needed him back in heaven. He isn’t God and never was.

We will all ‘know the truth’ one day.....it ‘sets us free’ from false beliefs.....false gods.....and false scripture.

I believe that we will all be where we have chosen to be when the final judgment comes.

There is also a reason why Christ attacked the beliefs held by many in his day....it is nothing new. Even those who claimed to worship the same God were divided.....they are more divided than ever now.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I really feel a great affinity for the American people as it grapples with a number of core issues in regards identity and nation building. One of the most important is race unity and without it any nation falls and is unworthy of contributing to the moral leadership the world so desperately lacks.

America has been an important ally for both New Zealand and Australia for over a century. We’ve been allies and fought together in a number of historical wars. We are democratic nations who hold similar ideals. We have all had to work incredibly hard to build better relationships with our indigenous peoples and all races. In a heartbeat it could easily be New Zealand or Australia whose racial tensions and wounds come to the surface for all the world to see.

I believe most Americans deeply care about their country and want to be united and freed from the disease of racism. With those aims in mind New Zealanders and Australians stand beside America as true friends.

^^^This

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That comes from the religion.

Hmm...I'm an optimist, without religion.
I have no idea if that makes me more or less deluded at this point.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yeah... so I am not detecting a very comfortable feeling in the air at this time. Not sleeping well... Saw a bunch of photos of people that were maimed with rubber bullets, which blind them and cause lots of damage.. (is this only happening after curfew hours start?) So.. And many protesters seem to claim they are marching peacefully, but claim it is a set up. What exactly is going on? This is going on in the city 20 miles from me.. and all that said, why this talk of optimism and success guys..

It's definitely not ONLY occurring after curfew. Rubber bullets have been used in non-curfew hours.

I say we start taking a far more skeptical tone with our thoughts about human nature. It has simply not developed too far yet. I am pretty convinced now, that the human race might have a long, long, long road ahead of it, unfortunately. This is a time to appeal with prayer to your gods, or meditate on our better virtues

I'm not really convinced we're on some sort of path to enlightenment. As far as I can tell, there have always been 'better' humans, striving for ideals, and 'worse' humans, living in the day to day and serving self-interest.

I see each day as a battle in that sense. To try and be the best me, and to try and get others to do the same. But I don't see us 'stepping forwards' as a species. We're born, and we learn, both good and bad. And so will the next generation.

Unlike something like 'scientific knowledge', which is going to move forward based on it being able to stand on the shoulders of those who came before, basic human nature is unchanged.

Just my opinion.
For some, they might see that as depressing, but I'd suggest only if they think each generation should be 'better' than the last. I think we're different.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah... so I am not detecting a very comfortable feeling in the air at this time. Not sleeping well... Saw a bunch of photos of people that were maimed with rubber bullets, which blind them and cause lots of damage.. (is this only happening after curfew hours start?) So.. And many protesters seem to claim they are marching peacefully, but claim it is a set up. What exactly is going on? This is going on in the city 20 miles from me.. and all that said, why this talk of optimism and success guys..

I say we start taking a far more skeptical tone with our thoughts about human nature. It has simply not developed too far yet. I am pretty convinced now, that the human race might have a long, long, long road ahead of it, unfortunately. This is a time to appeal with prayer to your gods, or meditate on our better virtues

I see these events change our way of viewing what is important in life, I am confident we will find out what is important in life from these events.

Regards Tony

 

[Father Heathen]

People just have to stop using race as a tool of leverage and a means to an end, and to stop reminding people of one's skin color which reinforces even more, ones differences. Especially with media.

Equanimity doesn't do much good if you keep reminding and pointing out the differences so it's not a real big surprise to come across prejudice and bigotry.

Like I said many times nobody listens to God, aka Morgan Freeman who says if you want to end racism, stop talking about it.

Ignoring it is why/how it proliferated in the first place; people aren't being held to account. It's hard to "ignore" racism when certain segments of society will treat you differently because of it. Those blind to color are blind to patterns.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'd much rather see the USA continue down the road of prosperity with its tenants of freedom attracting people from all walks of life and ethnicity.

Unfortunately it's really just a nice utopian view and not very realistic because when it comes down to the end of the day like it or not, we will always and always will be a tribal species.

Whether it's fighting against racist or being racist, political or whatever, if you notice, we always and inevitably flock into tribal groups.

That's life on the planet of the apes.

But the tribes that embrace reason and compassion will eventually overcome those that don't. That's how civilization progresses, competing ideals that rise and fall on their merits.

 

[Father Heathen]

And there's a new prejudice in America - white hate.

Any specific examples?