The default position...

[Bunyip]

How can an infant be either an atheist or theist when they do not even have a concept of self-awareness until about 18 months? And then they become busy trying to learn about their world. They are probably the most apathetic people when it comes to religion.

Because atheism is the default. We are born atheist. Anyone not even aware of god concepts would by definition be atheist in relation to those god concepts.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Willamena, not sure how you could possibly have thought so, but nobody is obliged to take a default position. That some people do not take the default position does not 'defy' it. It is still the default.

It's nice to have someone here saying all I intend to say, lol.
You're comments are helping me multitask other things, thank you!

 

[Willamena]

Yes, so that is hardly a relevant example is it? Nobody has ever shown anyone ever a god.

It's only a relevant example of belief.

I've been shown a god. That you haven't isn't relevant.

 

[Willamena]

Willamena, not sure how you could possibly have thought so, but nobody is obliged to take a default position. That some people do not take the default position does not 'defy' it. It is still the default.

I'm only pointing out that there is no default position.

 

[Deathbydefault]

It's only a relevant example of belief.

I've been shown a god. That you haven't isn't relevant.

So you're telling me that you've physically seen a God, in the flesh?
Any proof for that statement..?

 

[Willamena]

So you're telling me that you've physically seen a God, in the flesh?
Any proof for that statement..?

That's not relevant.

This whole "default position" in regards to belief in god is the topic.

 

[Deathbydefault]

That's not relevant.

This whole "default position" in regards to belief in god is the topic.

Exactly. So I want proof. That's what the default position is all about.

 

[Willamena]

So I want proof. That's what the default position is all about.

How so?

You are tempting me to believe you are a troll.

 

[outhouse]

I'm only pointing out that there is no default position.

You would be wrong.

No theism is our default position. Theism is factually a learned trait.

 

[Bunyip]

It's only a relevant example of belief.

I've been shown a god. That you haven't isn't relevant.

Why did you give me an example of belief? I know what it means, what was your point?
Which God by the way, and prove it.

 

[Willamena]

Why did you give me an example of belief? I know what it means, what was your point?

Because without a belief there is no need for "a position" on belief.

Which God by the way, and prove it.

Just god.

Like in the dictionary.

 

[Deathbydefault]

How so?

You are tempting me to believe you are a troll.

The way it was described to me, and what the articles I've read have lead me to believe, is the default position is your skepticism, per say.
It's what makes you say, "oh yeah? well prove it."
It's not the accepting of anything you think is true, only what has been proven true.

So I want you to prove you saw a God, simple as that.
Default position is the prevention from being gullible and believing everything you here.
It's that part of you that wants facts and proof.

That's my understanding.

 

[Bunyip]

Because without a belief there is no need for "a position" on belief.

Yes, I know. I have made that point several times.

Just god.

Like in the dictionary.

What a silly thing to say, the dictionary does not identify a specific God. I am not interested in engaging at such an infantile level. Have good day, I'll leave it there.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because atheism is the default. We are born atheist. Anyone not even aware of god concepts would by definition be atheist in relation to those god concepts.

An infant has no concept of nationality, but typically they are members of the nation they are born in.

No theism is our default position. Theism is factually a learned trait.

Atheism must also be learned. You have to be taught first about some form of god concept before you can reject or accept it. Total ignorance is what we are most definitely born with, and we are probably also born being apathetic towards it.
Your approach is one that tries to claim those who are neither atheist nor theist as atheists. That simply does not work.

 

[Willamena]

The way it was described to me, and what the articles I've read have lead me to believe, is the default position is your skepticism, per say.
It's what makes you say, "oh yeah? well prove it."
It's not the accepting of anything you think is true, only what has been proven true.

So I want you to prove you saw a God, simple as that.
Default position is the prevention from being gullible and believing everything you here.
It's that part of you that wants facts and proof.

That's my understanding.

Well, your articles are wrong. Skepticism is an extended position, not a default. It's a position of "always questioning," per se.

It's healthy, but it's no default.

I'm not going to "prove" god per se, because it's not relevant to the topic and because I simply don't care that you believe anything I say.

 

[Bunyip]

If I state the atheistic position as - the view that God does not exist, why is it that a large segment of atheists will fight it tooth and nail?

Please address your comments to me, I do not represent anybody else here. What other atheists may or may have said to you in the past is irrelevant. I in return speak to YOU - I do not lecture you about what other unnamed Catholics have said to others in the past. You are applying a very dishonest approach.

not It's true isn't it? God does not exist is your practical assumption in regards to your day to day life? So why is it many will insist that the proper definition is - the lack of belief in God?

Your tactic of attacking only third parties instead of addressing the person you are interacting with is painfully dishonest.

We both know why, the distinction is made, so that the atheistic position is always framed as non-committal. They want to do this so that the discourse with theists is always defined under their own terms. It's a cleaver argumentative tactic, but it is dishonest.

I have no idea what you think atheists are evading.

I'm saying there's no such thing as agnosticism. There are only degrees of certainty. The mere acknowledgement that you cannot have complete certainty does not take away from the fact that your position is committal. That is what this whole argument is about. Atheists want to have their cake and eat it too. They, on the one hand, want to say that God does not exist, yet at the same time they define their words so that their position is always non-committal by definition. - "We do not say that God doesn't exist, so we don't have any BoP."

So what? Where does yourf focus on complaining about otheratheists and semantics lead? What is your point?

I have stated several times that I get that few atheists would assert complete certainty in their views. That doesn't make them 'agnostic'. It just means that they're not silly enough to claim a certainty they can't possibly have.

So what? Atheism does not infer certainty, neither does agnosticism. Your entire argument is just grammatic pedantry. Semantics.

Yet many atheists will disagree with you. Google - atheism, lack of belief and you'll see many pages and blogs by atheists, arguing the difference.

You are talking to ME, not other atheists. In debate or discussion respond to the person you are talking to - not unnamed atheists you claim to have interacted with in the past. That is not debate or discussion, that is just trash talk.

 

[Willamena]

Yes, I know. I have made that point several times.

Atheism is not the default position. If you've also made that point several times, we have a case.

What a silly thing to say, the dictionary does not identify a specific God. I am not interested in engaging at such an infantile level. Have good day, I'll leave it there.

The dictionary is objective. It doesn't specify any particular god for a reason.

 

[Bunyip]

An infant has no concept of nationality, but typically they are members of the nation they are born in.

Yes, an infant has no concept of God, but typically are members of a broader culture. What was your point?

Atheism must also be learned.

No, it is the natural default. Implicit atheism.

You have to be taught first about some form of god concept before you can reject or accept it. Total ignorance is what we are most definitely born with, and we are probably also born being apathetic towards it.
Your approach is one that tries to claim those who are neither atheist nor theist as atheists. That simply does not work.

Anyone without a belief in God is by definition atheist. Why doesn't that work?

 

[Bunyip]

Atheism is not the default position. If you've also made that point several times, we have a case.


The dictionary is objective. It doesn't specify any particular god for a reason.

Yes, and neither will you. Because you are just playing games. I am not interested.

 

[Willamena]

Yes, and neither will you. Because you are just playing games. I am not interested.

I play the same game the dictionary does.