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The dead in Christ are rising

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by jvi, Feb 14, 2005.

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  1. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    When it comes to war, tacticians understand that they must know their adversary. They have to know how their enemy thinks. When they know how the enemy thinks, they are able to determine the possibilities of attack and prepare themselves to counter it, like chess. Guerilla warfare has several advantages. It becomes difficult to identify the enemy when the enemy comes in friendly form. If a soldier is not able to identify his enemy, it becomes a disadvantage. Deception and surprise are key to winning a war, as many tacticians know. If you know who your enemy is, if you know how he’s going to attack and when he’s going to attack, and if you know where he’s going to attack you have the advantage.
    This information is acquired through military intelligence. In order to understand your enemy, you have to analyze the enemy. How do we battle against what we don't know or understand?

    The “spiritual” world, to the ancients, was a non-tangible world. It was an unknown world of occurrences that cannot be seen, and therefore was not completely understood. Especially in ancient times, people did not have the science of modern times to explain mental dysfunctions such as epilepsy. An explanation, if one were to enter a state of convulsions, would be demon possession. However this explanation is highly superficial and superstitious, which does not even breach the surface of the underlying cause of the problem. Another example of this is when the Luke describes a woman who had a physical malfunction for eighteen years: [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Luke 13:[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity". [/font]If the authors of these biblical texts could gave us a literal and modern interpretation of the texts, there would be no angels, demons, or spirits. However angels and demons represent numerous things, one modern interpretation of an angel or demon would simply be a temporal state of mind that occurs within an individual. Can we in fact see a "demonic" state of mind occur within characters of the bible? Yes, and this includes the fact that when Jesus indirectly called Peter Satan, he was using figurative language to single out this state of mind that was occurring on a frequent basis in Peter.

    In fact this is what I am going to show you through a psychoanalysis of any character in the bible. Especially a phsychoanalysis of Peter, whom Jesus had indirectly called Satan.

    Satan is un-evolved consciousness and awareness (ignorance). It is an egoistic, selfish state of mind where an individual lacks true understanding of not only others, but themselves. They are especially under-developed in their awareness of others on empathic levels. In other words, the world revolves around the individual. However, this state of mind is also caused by fears, insecurities, painful memories, delusions, obsessions, and impulses, (the tools of Satan) which become the driving forces of selfish, destructive and animalistic behavior.

    This is a psychological explanation for why Satan was drawn as a symbolical humanoid beast carrying the caduceus, or "pitchfork". Satan was also drawn as a half circle, a symbol meaning incompletion.

    An antichrist relates to a person, who is undoubtingly associated with Satan. Satan is aslo associated with the physical world, as he is associated as being the ruler of destructive forces that occur throughout the world, and also was associated as being the cause for a physical disfunction. Also he is associated with desire and temptations (emotions).

    [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 16:21-23 21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day. 22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!" 23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

    [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Luke 22:[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."33 But he said to Him, "Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death." 34 Then He said, "I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me."

    [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] Luke 22:1-6 1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. 6 So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude.

    [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 13:[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me." 22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke. 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke. 25 Then, leaning back on Jesus' breast, he said to Him, "Lord, who is it?" 26 Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it." And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."

    [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 4:1-11 1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." 4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' " 5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' "7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me." 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.' "

    [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
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  2. jvi

    jvi Member

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    Oracle you reject Jesus don't you? Just come over to the other side. You are either with Jesus Christ or Anti Jesus Christ. Which are you?
     
  3. jvi

    jvi Member

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    Except you have no Bible quotes to back it up?
     
  4. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    Nope, I'm backing it up right now, just keep your eye on post 61 for a couple hours. I will gather supporting scriptures and then i will include a psychoanalyis.

    [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] Luke 22:1-6 1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. 6 So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude.

    Why did Judas betray Jesus? What it because of Satan? Or was it because of his selfish state of mind?

    [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] John 12:1-11 1 Then, six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was who had been dead,* whom He had raised from the dead. 2 There they made Him a supper; and Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those who sat at the table with Him. 3 Then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil. 4 Then one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, who would betray Him, said, 5 "Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it. 7 But Jesus said, "Let her alone; she has kept this for the day of My burial. 8 For the poor you have with you always, but Me you do not have always."

    What was Judas' motive when he had said what he said?
    [/font]
     
  5. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Continued from post #61

    Mark 4:1-20 1 And again He began to teach by the sea. And a great multitude was gathered to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea. 2 Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching: 3 "Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it. 5 Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. 7 And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8 But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." 9 And He said to them, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" 10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.' " 13 And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred."

    [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] Acts 5:1-11 1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

    [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Chronicles 21:1-6 1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. [/font]
     
  6. jvi

    jvi Member

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    From post 61 it looks like Satan is the spirit against Jesus. The antichrist spirit. So has Satan entered all who reject Jesus Christ?
     
  7. jvi

    jvi Member

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    Oracle do you follow the laws of God? The 7 Holy Days
     
  8. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I follow God's laws inside my heart and through the spirit, not through the flesh. External works mean nothing in God's eyes, but it is the internal motives of the heart that breaks the laws of God.

    A sin is committed inside the heart before it is externally committed. But you see, you do not understand that ALL Sin is SELFISHNESS (Satan), which is the neglect of one own's selfwill for their own advantage despite the well being of another person.

    Satan is the origin of Sin.
    Likewise, selfishness is the underlying cause of all sinful behavior.
     
  9. jvi

    jvi Member

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    Don't you think mankind should celebrate the 7 Holy Days of God to keep their head on straight? Most people celebrate Nimrod holidays like Christmas and Easter. Why don't churches teach the 7 Holy Days? See how messed up American churchianity is? They are basically possessed by Satan because the lies of Nimrod and Esau fill these people's minds.
     
  10. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    You are like the Pharisees of Jesus' time who were more interested in legalistic Dogma rather than spiritual truth. NOTHING FINITE STANDS IN THE WAY OF GOD'S INFINITE LOVE, of which all God's creations are entitled.

    [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Luke 13:10-17 10 Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, "Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity." 13 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, "There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day." 15 The Lord then answered him and said, "Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? 16 So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound--think of it--for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?" 17 And when He said these things, all His adversaries were put to shame; and all the multitude rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by Him.

    In the end, legalistic dogma doesn't matter because works are worthless in God's eyes. It is the internal motives of the heart that God measures.

    [/font]Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

    Sometimes having a sense of traditions and moral values can be egotism in disguise. Morals and traditions do not make people superior that they should disassociate themselves with those they consider unworthy. Everyone makes mistakes and not everybody celebrates the same things as you.

    Celebrating 7 holy days would do nothing, especially on a psychological aspect. It doesn't make a person "holier than thou". That, in itself, is blasphemous.

    [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] Matthew 15:10-20 10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." 12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" 13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch." 15 Then Peter answered and said to Him, "Explain this parable to us." 16 So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

    All "evil" thoughts have one thing in common, and that is motive of selfishness.
    [/font]
     
  11. jvi

    jvi Member

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    What rules do you suggest mankind follows? Or should we have no rules?
     
  12. jvi

    jvi Member

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    Jesus was showing the Pharisees how absurd their interpretation was of not doing work on the Sabbath. The Sabbath (the 7th Day) represents your complete understanding of God's 7 Holy Days. When you reach the 7th Day in your mind you need work no more in your understanding. You are complete. Afterwards when you celebrate the Sabbath it is just ceremonial. You are allowed to help others or do work things, it is just that you no longer have to work on your spiritual mind.You are at rest with God.
     
  13. jvi

    jvi Member

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    I do think it is important to understand the 7 Holy Days. God gave them to us for a reason. We should understand their spiritual meaning.
     
  14. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    The Golden rule
    [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica], "Love your neighbor as yourself"[/font]
     
  15. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    jvi, are you related to Iris? I just have to know.
     
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  16. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    You haven't carefully read what I have posted:

    When it comes to war, tacticians understand that they must know their adversary. They have to know how their enemy thinks. When they know how the enemy thinks, they are able to determine the possibilities of attack and prepare themselves to counter it, like chess. Guerilla warfare has several advantages. It becomes difficult to identify the enemy when the enemy comes in friendly form. If a soldier is not able to identify his enemy, it becomes a disadvantage. Deception and surprise are key to winning a war, as many tacticians know. If you know who your enemy is, if you know how he’s going to attack and when he’s going to attack, and if you know where he’s going to attack you have the advantage.
    This information is acquired through military intelligence. In order to understand your enemy, you have to analyze the enemy. How do we battle against something we don't know or understand?

    The “spiritual” world, to the ancients, was a non-tangible world. It was an unknown world of occurrences that could not be seen, and therefore was not completely understood. Especially in ancient times, people did not have the science of modern times to explain mental dysfunctions such as epilepsy. An explanation, if one were to enter a state of convulsions, would be demon possession. However this explanation is highly superficial and superstitious, which does not even breach the surface of the underlying cause of the problem. Another example of this is when the Luke describes a woman who had a physical malfunction for eighteen years: [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Luke 13:[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity". [/font]If the authors of these biblical texts could give us a literal and modern interpretation of the texts, there would be no angels, demons, or spirits. Angels, demons, and spirits represent numerous things. One modern interpretation of an angel or demon would simply be a temporal state of mind that occurs within an individual. Can we in fact see a "demonic" state of mind occur within characters of the bible? Yes, and this concludes the fact that when Jesus indirectly called Peter Satan, he was using figurative language to single out this untangible state of mind that was occurring on a frequent basis in Peter.
     
  17. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I'll do a psychological dissection of the mind of Peter and Judas tomorrow. I'm going to retire for the day.
     
  18. jvi

    jvi Member

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    Also:
    Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

    and

    Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.



    To me this means follow God's Holy Days.
     
  19. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    Okay, you can follow those legalistic laws, but it doesn't make you more special then everyone else. Not only that, but it changes nothing.

    If you loved others as yourself you wouldn't call us anti-christs. You can keep your laws to yourself, and for goodness sake keep your anti-semitism to yourself. I for one, highly respect Judaism and Jewish peoples. The 7th day has a more profound meaning to me, one that exceeds literal celebtration.
     
  20. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Excuse the ignorance but what are the seven holy days. Thanks.
     
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