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The Danger of Rationalism

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The word "rational" has more than one meaning. In common speech (and sometimes even in formal philosophy) the word often enough means a view or belief that is arrived at through a combination of logical reasoning and empirical evidence. However, the word when used in philosophy can often refer to a view or belief that is arrived at through logical reasoning alone. Thus, a "rationalist" is quite often a philosopher who ignores empirical evidence in favor of grounding their beliefs solely in logical reasoning.

In my view, rationalism poses a peculiar sort of danger that is derived from the fact a line of reasoning can be perfectly logical without being sound. That is, without being both logical and true at the same time.

For instance, consider this simple line of logical reasoning:

All men have horns.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates has horns.

The reasoning is perfectly logical but it is not sound. It is not grounded in truth. But that is a problem with all purely rational arguments. You can know if they are logical, but you cannot know if they are true (without resorting to empirical verification).

A popular example (in America) of a rationalist would be Ayn Rand. Rand almost never checked her views and theories against empirical evidence such as is found in the sciences or in the better histories. Hence, it seems likely she did not realize how far her views often deviated from anything strongly supported by empirical evidence. For instance, she divided people into two economic categories -- "makers and takers" -- and then assigned traits and attributes to each group that -- while logically derived from her definitions of the categories -- are simplistic to the point of absurdity when compared to empirical reality.

Rationalism has its uses, but without empirical verification, rationalism seems to rather quickly detour into the impractical and absurd. This is most likely the reason the sciences avoid rationalism in favor of a more balanced combination of logical reasoning and empirical evidence.




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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I would begin with the fact that humans are fundamentally rational and reasoning as a part of their nature.

Rationalism is rather extreme philosophy/theology that attributes virtually everything to human reasoning, which in and of itself in unrealistic.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I would begin with the fact that humans are fundamentally rational and reasoning as a part of their nature.

Rationalism is rather extreme philosophy/theology that attributes virtually everything to human reasoning, which in and of itself in unrealistic.

Is that all humans?
What is rational and reasoning?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I would begin with the fact that humans are fundamentally rational and reasoning as a part of their nature.

Rationalism is rather extreme philosophy/theology that attributes virtually everything to human reasoning, which in and of itself in unrealistic.
I find that humans are fundamentally both rational & irrational.
But that minor quibble aside, I'm struck by how irrational "rationalism"
is or has been (at least as believed by some), as laid out in Wikipedia's
entry for it....
"In an old controversy, rationalism was opposed to empiricism, where
the rationalists believed that reality has an intrinsically logical structure.
Because of this, the rationalists argued that certain truths exist and
that the intellect can directly grasp these truths. That is to say, rationalists
asserted that certain rational principles exist in logic, mathematics, ethics,
and metaphysics that are so fundamentally true that denying them causes
one to fall into contradiction. The rationalists had such a high confidence
in reason that empirical proof and physical evidence were regarded as
unnecessary to ascertain certain truths
– in other words, "there are
significant ways in which our concepts and knowledge are gained
independently of sense experience".[4]"
I added the underlining of the most eyebrow raising part.

Logic is only as useful as the cromulence of one's premises. Without
sound empirically verifiable starting points, one has a structure which
might or might not apply to our reality.
As I saw with Ayn Rand's works, her views were interesting, but her
attempts to claim "truth" were "not even wrong". So it goes with any
trying to do the same....just so you don't think I'm singling her out.

"Rationalism".....is it the adding of "ism" suffix which transmutes
perfectly respectable words into shaky belief systems? I'm thinking
of "scientism" & "evolutionism".
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
The word "rational" has more than one meaning. In common speech (and sometimes even in formal philosophy) the word often enough means a view or belief that is arrived at through a combination of logical reasoning and empirical evidence. However, the word when used in philosophy can often refer to a view or belief that is arrived at through logical reasoning alone. Thus, a "rationalist" is quite often a philosopher who ignores empirical evidence in favor of grounding their beliefs solely in logical reasoning.

In my view, rationalism poses a peculiar sort of danger that is derived from the fact a line of reasoning can be perfectly logical without being sound. That is, without being both logical and true at the same time.

For instance, consider this simple line of logical reasoning:

All men have horns.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates has horns.

The reasoning is perfectly logical but it is not sound. It is not grounded in truth. But that is a problem with all purely rational arguments. You can know if they are logical, but you cannot know if they are true (without resorting to empirical verification).

A popular example (in America) of a rationalist would be Ayn Rand. Rand almost never checked her views and theories against empirical evidence such as is found in the sciences or in the better histories. Hence, it seems likely she did not realize how far her views often deviated from anything strongly supported by empirical evidence. For instance, she divided people into two economic categories -- "makers and takers" -- and then assigned traits and attributes to each group that -- while logically derived from her definitions of the categories -- are simplistic to the point of absurdity when compared to empirical reality.

Rationalism has its uses, but without empirical verification, rationalism seems to rather quickly detour into the impractical and absurd. This is most likely the reason the sciences avoid rationalism in favor of a more balanced combination of logical reasoning and empirical evidence.




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The premise "all men have horns" is not based in logical reasoning. Thus, your argument against rationalism fails.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Yeah, the premise is not supported by EVIDENCE. I would have thought that EVIDENCE would be a 'duh obvious' requirement for making any assessment of a premise.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
It fails as an argument since the first line is a false premise. But Sunstone is pointing out that the logic is not flawed according to the accepted jargon of philosophy.
I understand that but surely logic always relies on true starting premises?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Rationalism has its uses, but without empirical verification, rationalism seems to rather quickly detour into the impractical and absurd. This is most likely the reason the sciences avoid rationalism in favor of a more balanced combination of logical reasoning and empirical evidence.
On the other hand, IR-rationalism has it's uses, too. Sometimes we can see a truth more clearly through the use of an absurdly irrational proposition than through a rational one. As with humor and artifice. Or we can see new patterns and possibilities that we could not have recognized, otherwise.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
But doesn't that fall down in the first line?

It is interesting that an intelligent person like you (and I am NOT being sarcastic -- I regard you as among the smarter people I have met online) has such a basic misconception of the nature of logic. I suspect that is because very few educations include formal courses in the study of logic. But -- to me -- it is almost shocking that someone as smart as you would not grasp what logic is. And I am not exaggerating when I say "almost shocking".
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
For instance, consider this simple line of logical reasoning:

All men have horns.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates has horns.
Let me reformulate that in a more rational way:

If all men have horns
and Socrates is a man,
then Socrates has horns.

Or in mathematical language:

If the set of "all men" is a subset of "all things with horns"
and "Socrates" is a subset of "all men"
then "Socrates" is a subset of "all things with horns".

This a way to formalize assertions into mathematics and use mathematical tools to determine the truth value of these assertions.
Like mathematics, rationalism makes no statement about the real world, it makes statements about truth values, given that the premises are correct representations of the real (or an ideal) world.

The danger lies in forgetting that limitation.
 
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