The curse of "converts"

[carmenara]

Usually they're culturally attuned to the people who founded them. But that's rather natural. Larger ones, less so. That's been my experience anyway.

There's a small temple that likes to tell me not to "worship demigods" but I just roleplay back sharing tales of Kali/Durga which gave me all the spiritual experiences anyway. They get the point lol.

Had no trouble finding common ground, and they invite me over to perform dances and attend prasadams, veg cooking sessions, etc. Its working with differences in beliefs and opinions and managing expectation that's how I became confident to stand on my own two feet on the topic of religion anyway. Working with niche communities and unusual viewpoints is nothing bad!

 

[Vinayaka]

There's a small temple that likes to tell me not to "worship demigods" but I just roleplay back sharing tales of Kali/Durga which gave me all the spiritual experiences anyway. They get the point lol.

Had no trouble finding common ground, and they invite me over to perform dances and attend prasadams, veg cooking sessions, etc. Its working with differences in beliefs and opinions and managing expectation that's how I became confident to stand on my own two feet on the topic of religion anyway. Working with niche communities and unusual viewpoints is nothing bad!

Yes of course it's nothing bad. My take has always been "In Rome do as the Romans do" and it works perfectly. Another key is to just shut up and enjoy the experiences, whatever they are, and not set yourself expectations. Unrealistic expectations inevitably lead to disappointment.

 

[carmenara]

So much agreement for your last point.

That's exactly why I dislike reading the reviews for Delhi in TripAdvisor. So many spoilt people who didn't understand the culture and history and expecting to be royalty. Worse, the people paid to give good reviews that are not sincere or clearly hiding something.

I purposely want to visit less known, less developed, or poorly reviewed places - there's always a different, better approach to experiencing those places and getting along with the people there.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There's a small temple that likes to tell me not to "worship demigods" ..

Hare Krishnas. Hare Krishna language.

 

[carmenara]

I have a funny question today.

I may be needed to update my national registration particulars after a certain age and have not done so. As with all things here there are payment of fines (incredible, a fine city) and I might as well make it nice and update the "religion" field.

The government and most of the people here are absolutely inflexible in their bureaucracy and might ask for documentation for religious faith. For other religions there are baptism certs, conversion certs that I am familiar with, but for Hindus? Does any such documentation exist?

Aside from telling them tales of Durga & Saraswati... which doesn't work on the majority culture here - they can't fathom why I "became Indian"... and making the whole immigration office into a Bollywood dance floor I am not knowing how to convince the potentially uncaring bureaucratic robot sitting across the counter from me (LOL).

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are not an Indian, that requires an acceptance from the government of India, although one can apply for a citizenship.
As for being Hindu, one can be a Hindu without any papers. A formal initiation is not a requirement in Hinduism.
What is the procedure for conversions in Singapore if you are a Singaporean? You will need to fulfill that.
Being an Indian and being a Hindu are two different things.

 

[carmenara]

Oh I was just asking for the religion part. Citizenship things are not really something I can tackle at this point.

Although the past few months being welcomed into another culture is something very precious. Being a Hindu is something I wanted to do in thanks. And that something soon allowed me to go ultimately much further than I could before.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have a funny question today.

I may be needed to update my national registration particulars after a certain age and have not done so. As with all things here there are payment of fines (incredible, a fine city) and I might as well make it nice and update the "religion" field.

The government and most of the people here are absolutely inflexible in their bureaucracy and might ask for documentation for religious faith. For other religions there are baptism certs, conversion certs that I am familiar with, but for Hindus? Does any such documentation exist?

Aside from telling them tales of Durga & Saraswati... which doesn't work on the majority culture here - they can't fathom why I "became Indian"... and making the whole immigration office into a Bollywood dance floor I am not knowing how to convince the potentially uncaring bureaucratic robot sitting across the counter from me (LOL).

I think the best thing you could do is go to a temple priest where you attend regularly, and have him vouch for you. If there is a Ramakrishna Mission in town, they might as well, but you would need to convince them. My sampradaya uses to issue certificates of conversion way back when, and perhaps they sill do. I used mine once just to tell everyone about change of name.

 

[Aupmanyav]

For such a certification/initiation, there should not be a costly fee. I think, there is a waiting period for one month after a person approaches a court registrar to indicate his/her desire to change religion. If no objections are received, the person just makes a notarized declaration declaration (that means the exact procedure could be a little different from what I am thinking). The procedure for a genuine change of religion is a right conferred by the Indian Constitution and is not very difficult (I am talking for Indian citizens).

 

[Vinayaka]

For such a certification/initiation, there should not be a costly fee. I think, there is a waiting period for one month after a person approaches a court registrar to indicate his/her desire to change religion. If no objections are received, the person just makes a notarized declaration declaration (that means the exact procedure could be a little different from what I am thinking). The procedure for a genuine change of religion is a right conferred by the Indian Constitution and is not very difficult (I am talking for Indian citizens).

All countries vary. Singapore is the most diverse nation on this planet in terms of religion, and a balance amongst them. Most places do have a majority religion. Here in Canada there are government fees (albeit relatively minimal) for all such things.

 

[carmenara]

Thanks.
I am not a citizen here and even change of name (religious name) will have to be done in the country which I have citizenship, so not worth the hassle.

There are people pressing me (from the workplace side) to take up citizenship locally but since I am always treated like I don't belong here, am not wanting to and desiring to expand my horizons. I probably have started the oddest discussions on travel to Delhi, with a most unusual itinerary

The religion thing on my identity card, makes no difference really, I believe parents left it as 'free thinker' and that's how I remained until I decided to take up Hinduism very recently... and decided its most comfortable for me. Still I do appreciate the answer - other religions I am familiar with what documentation are given on conversion but taking up Hinduism is very, very rare here for a non-Indian.

To my amusement most people assume I am a foreigner now despite being born here and living/working/studying here for 30+ years.

Anyway, as someone on 'a social media platform' commented to me once 'gods and goddesses are in your heart'... Hinduism had given me the fresh start I wanted and a wealth of ancient knowledge to inspire others positively by.

 

[Frater Sisyphus]

I gotta say, while I'm not as familiar with the complexities of Hinduism compared to some of the other Dharmic Religions, it is perhaps my favorite (as so many elements feel connected in various ways with elements of Gnosticism/Hermeticism and Thelema), I feel very fond of it from an outsider's perspective.

If I was to follow/believe in any theistic religions, Hinduism would likely be it


.....and I'm always here to keep learning

Namaste!

Much has happened since this post!

In January, I stopped identifying as an agnostic spiritual person and started leaning strong towards panentheism. I will always be a syncretic person (Hinduism itself exists through syncretism anyway, as most religions to some extent) - so Hinduism will always be a piece of my puzzle.
I believe that Hinduism is a large piece of that puzzle, like Thelema and Hermeticism. There are core believes, core Gnosis and core practices that are strongly a part of both the way I see the world and what I am in that world.

Hinduism feels one of the least dogmatic of all religions, both new and old. There is a strong sense of belonging at the same time as a strong variety of diversity. The whole concept of Brahman, in and of itself: is astounding. And such belonging and diversity reflects this.

I am steeped in both the Upanishads and the Vedas in the present (Hinduism-wise) - Taittiriya Upanishad and Rigveda, to be specific, this past week - revising and spending devotional/meditation time with.


Thought I'd just give an update (as I actually haven't posted a lot in this DIR since...)

Frater Sisyphus
Om
93

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thanks, went through Taittiriy Upanishad abd Bhrigu Valli. Rough translation, not from the book (http://estudantedavedanta.net/Taittiriya Upanishad - Swami Sarvanand [Sanskrit-English].pdf), which certainly is better. Not difficult for me due to my background. You are welcome if something needs to be discussed.
Brahma vidapnoti param l (Chapter 1)
One who knows Brahman, reaches the highest
Asad vā idamāgrasīt l Tato vai sadjāyata l (Chapter 7)
First he (it) was none existent. Then he (it) was existent.
Sa yashchayam purushe l Yashchāsavāditye l sa ekah l (Chapter 8)
He (it) is the man l He (it) is the sun too l He (it) is one.
Na vibhetikutashchaneti l Etam ha vava na tapati l Kimaham sadhu nakravam l Chapter 9)
He does not fear it l This thought does not bother him l Did I not act good ?

 

[Devaki]

Right, so because I didn't want to spam the DIR with yet another thread about temple entry, I've decided to post here first.

I'll finally be going to India, albeit on an organized tour, with my dad around Christmas.
We probably won't have all that much free time, but still I'd obviously love to visit as many temples as possible.
The thing is that I'm about a minus 10 on the Fitzpatrick skin type scale, especially in winter and thus if it says "Only Hindus allowed", I most likely won't get in.

We're going to land in Chennai, where we'll also have I think a whole afternoon off. Then we'll do the usual tourist trail so Mahabalipuram, Thanjavur, Madurai ... and the tour will end in Kochi.
I've read that the Southern states tend to be stricter on who they let into their temples, is that true?

So yeah guess what I'm asking is: any must see temples in any of the above cities that aren't already going to be included in the standard tour for tourists? Any big temples that definitely won't let "non-Hindus" in?
I've recently grown quite fond of Lord Murugan, so any Murugan temples would be particularly appreciated but I'm pretty much open to anything. If the architecture is nice that's a plus cause dad's a lapsed Catholic and not particularly interested in the religious side of things. Thanks a lot in advance =)

 

[Vinayaka]

Right, so because I didn't want to spam the DIR with yet another thread about temple entry, I've decided to post here first.

I'll finally be going to India, albeit on an organized tour, with my dad around Christmas.
We probably won't have all that much free time, but still I'd obviously love to visit as many temples as possible.
The thing is that I'm about a minus 10 on the Fitzpatrick skin type scale, especially in winter and thus if it says "Only Hindus allowed", I most likely won't get in.

We're going to land in Chennai, where we'll also have I think a whole afternoon off. Then we'll do the usual tourist trail so Mahabalipuram, Thanjavur, Madurai ... and the tour will end in Kochi.
I've read that the Southern states tend to be stricter on who they let into their temples, is that true?

So yeah guess what I'm asking is: any must see temples in any of the above cities that aren't already going to be included in the standard tour for tourists? Any big temples that definitely won't let "non-Hindus" in?
I've recently grown quite fond of Lord Murugan, so any Murugan temples would be particularly appreciated but I'm pretty much open to anything. If the architecture is nice that's a plus cause dad's a lapsed Catholic and not particularly interested in the religious side of things. Thanks a lot in advance =)

The only 2 larger Murugan temples on this trip would be Swamimalai and Tiruparankundram, which neither would have any 'Hindu only' signs, although if you act like a tourist they might do something. They're not tourist spots so they wouldn't be used to tourists, and how to deal with them.

Swamimalai is just off the road about an hour before you get to Thanjavur, and Tiruparankadram is about 15 minutes south of Madurai, on the main road going south.

You could also do a day trip to Palani from Madurai. About 2 hours one way, and any hotel concierge could arrange it, if you have tour time off in Madurai.

I know if it was me, in that situation, knowing you'll likely be staying overnight in Madurai, I'd skip the Meenakshi temple (which you probably won't be let into anyway) and go south to Tiruparankandram.

 

[Devaki]

Thank you so much for your reply.

Yeah I'm not sure if Swamimalai would be doable, thought I'd love to go there.
I'm definitely planning on Tiruparankandram, due to its proximity to Madurai, so I'm very glad to hear there likely won't be any problems. I read about Meenakshi not letting non-Hindus in, which is why I am suspicious of the official tour plan which lists "a ceremony" at Meenakshi as a highlight of the tour .

I'm not going for touristy reasons, I just went with the organized tour since my Dad barely speaks any English let alone anything else and he insisted on it. And I figured as an "intro to India" trip it might be less overwhelming than just venturing there all alone, given that I have very limited travel experience up till now.
I assume as far as clothing goes a saree would be my best bet, right?
I'm not the best at sarees and I usually wear suits when I go to temple here, but I could do a saree if a temple had any super strict clothing rule.

Unfortunately I think Pazhani is definitely not doable on this trip since it would require us to take almost a whole day off the tour, which we simply won't be able to do.

Thank you again very much.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thank you so much for your reply.

Yeah I'm not sure if Swamimalai would be doable, thought I'd love to go there.
I'm definitely planning on Tiruparankandram, due to its proximity to Madurai, so I'm very glad to hear there likely won't be any problems. I read about Meenakshi not letting non-Hindus in, which is why I am suspicious of the official tour plan which lists "a ceremony" at Meenakshi as a highlight of the tour .

I'm not going for touristy reasons, I just went with the organized tour since my Dad barely speaks any English let alone anything else and he insisted on it. And I figured as an "intro to India" trip it might be less overwhelming than just venturing there all alone, given that I have very limited travel experience up till now.
I assume as far as clothing goes a saree would be my best bet, right?
I'm not the best at sarees and I usually wear suits when I go to temple here, but I could do a saree if a temple had any super strict clothing rule.

Unfortunately I think Pazhani is definitely not doable on this trip since it would require us to take almost a whole day off the tour, which we simply won't be able to do.

Thank you again very much.

Suits are fine there. Saris are better, but if you're wearing it at all 'off' expect to get swarmed by several helpful women to help you get it 'right'. We get into Madurai, (we're white) and you can try. Just act really confident with your Hinduness. If you look like you really know what you're doing, (if that's possible) they most likely won't stop you.

India has such culture shock that I think you're doing the right thing to go on a tour first. You can always go back again, slower. Really not all that hard.

Have fun.

 

[Vinayaka]

Another suggestion that works is to go to the hotel desk, and ask, "Where is the nearest Hindu temple I can walk to?" If the tour guides are at least a little flexible with security, etc. you can find some really neat little temples that way. I probably did it at every town we stopped at. Those temples are often more authentic than the huge tourist ones.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Can't do any better than Vinyaka here. If your tour agency says that you will have a ceremony at Meenakshi Sundaram, then probably you would be allowed in. Why not check with them again on this point. At least have a look around the Meenakshi temple. I have not had the fortune to go there, but the gates are very interesting colorful. And the interiors are just flabbergasting. I love them.

 

[Devaki]

Another suggestion that works is to go to the hotel desk, and ask, "Where is the nearest Hindu temple I can walk to?" If the tour guides are at least a little flexible with security, etc. you can find some really neat little temples that way. I probably did it at every town we stopped at. Those temples are often more authentic than the huge tourist ones.

This is actually a brilliant idea, I will do that.
I'm definitely one for "authenticity" so that would be perfect.

Right I'll try my best to appear confident and ready myself for helpful aunties.
Thank you again so much Vinayaka, you've been most helpful.