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Featured The creator did it.

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by A REAL CHRISTIAN, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    What we are talking about here, is God(s) condoning immoral things. Look, you can try to justify God commanding people to commit genocide all day long, but you're not going to convince me that genocide is moral. Or that murdering fetuses, infants and children is moral either, just because their parents are immoral, or whatever.

    I find it bizarre and alarming that anyone would even bother to try to defend such immorality. But I guess you're stuck doing it, if you think you need to justify the ancient book you believe in.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Hebrews created a grandiose history for themselves.

    The first period that Geva considers in his study is from the 18th–11th centuries B.C.E. (Middle Bronze Age II to Iron Age I, in archaeological terms), the period before the arrival of the Israelites. Jerusalem was then confined to the small spur south of the Temple Mount known today as the City of David.

    As Geva reminds us, even then Jerusalem “was the center of an important territorial entity.” From this period, the area includes a massive fortification system that has recently been excavated. Overall, however, the area comprises only about 11–12 acres.

    Geva estimates the population of the city during this period at between 500 and 700 “at most.” (Previously other prominent scholars had estimated Jerusalem’s population in this period as 880–1,100, 1,000, 2,500, 3,000; still this is hardly what we would consider a metropolis.)

    Ancient Jerusalem: The Village, the Town, the City - Biblical Archaeology Society


    Ancient Jerusalem: The Village, the Town, the City - Biblical Archaeology Society
     
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  3. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    Ah, but both could be true. God(s) would easily be able to design evolution, as we see it operate here on Earth. And lots of religious-minded people believe just that.

    Unless you can read God's mind or something, you have no idea what "he" wants for anyone or what choices "he" will honour, or any of it. You have no evidence for any of it.


    You have no more idea what happens when we die than anybody else does.
     
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  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    They destroyed the Amalekites .. an imaginary tribe that did them wrong during the imaginary Exodus.
     
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  5. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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  6. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Be careful, Allah hell might be even hotter.

    So, taking the Pascal Wager at face value, we should believe in the god with the hottest hell, in order to reduce the expected eternal outside temperature. I can make up one easily if you want, in the same way people made up the one you believe in.

    Actually, on second thought, I believe that God will send atheists to heaven and believers to hell. I mean, that guy must be a huge scientist to have done ll this. And must be enormously smart. And I know no scientist, nor smart person, who prizes belief without evidence. That is actually a rather silly thing to do, if you think about it.

    So, be careful. And choose carefully.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #1386 viole, Mar 11, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  7. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    I repeat ...

    So instead of providing the evidence I requested (which of course should be very easy to produce, from your point of view on the subject), you've given me a list of people that "are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged."

    Would you like to try again?

    You know, there are more scientists named Steve in the world that accept evolution, than there are people on that list you provided. They have far more biologists on their list than yours does. What does that mean to you?

    Scientific theories are about the quantity and quality of evidence backing them up, rather than opinions of individuals.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    There are too many problems to take it literally.. too many errors of geography and history.. too many contradictions and anachronisms.. and too many gross exaggerations for the Bible to be inspired of God. God would have known there was NO Ur of the Chaldeas in the time of Abraham.

    Did God intend mankind to park his brain? I don't think so.
     
  9. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    It appears you have nothing left, and you've just been reduced to flat out preaching.

    How disappointing.
     
  10. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    I agree.
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    One thing that should jump off the page is Exodus was 2 million Israelites and their herds. But, David's Jerusalem was less than 2000 people.

    It the Bible is to have value, there has to be another way to look at the stories.
     
  12. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    I agree that the stories should not be taken literally. And I think you have elucidated one of the reasons why that is.
     
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  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Faith and a spiritual life has its place in the modern world.. What bugs me is that I think the fundies and literalists deprive educated people of faith... So the choice becomes untenable.. They have to give up education and critical thinking to be a Christian. Surely that isn't right.
     
  14. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    I always refer to Joseph Campbell when it comes to myth meaning.
    he touched on that myth in this interview:
    Ep. 2: Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth -- 'The Message of the Myth' | BillMoyers.com


    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Whenever one moves out of the transcendent, one comes into a field of opposites. These two pairs of opposites come forth as male and female from the two sides. What has eaten of the tree of the knowledge, not only of good and evil, but of male and female, of right and wrong, of this and that, and light and dark. Everything in the field of time is dual, past and future, dead and alive. All this, being and nonbeing, is, isn’t.

    BILL MOYERS: And what’s the significance of them being beside the mask of God, the mask of eternity? What is this sculpture saying to us?

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: The mask represents the middle, and the two represent the two opposites, and they always come in pairs. And put your mind in the middle; most of us put our minds on the side of the good against what we think of as evil. It was Heraclitus, I think, who said, “For God all things are good and right and just, but for man some things are right and others are not.” You’re in the field of time when you’re man, and one of the problems of life is to life in the realization of both terms. That is to say, I know the center and I know that good and evil are simply temporal apparitions.

    BILL MOYERS: Well, are some myths more or less true than others?

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: They’re true in different senses, do you see? Here’s a whole mythology based on the insight that transcends duality. Ours is a mythology that’s based on the insight of duality. And so our religion tends to be ethical in its accent, sin and atonement, right and wrong. It started with a sin, you see. In other words, moving out of the mythological zone, the garden of paradise where there is no time, and where men and women don’t even know that they’re different from each other, there the two are just creatures. And God and man are practically the same: “He walks in the cool of the evening in the garden where we are.” And then they eat the apple, the knowledge of the pairs of opposites, and man and woman then cover their shame, that they’re different; God and man, they’re different; man and nature, as against man.
    I once heard a wonderful lecture by Daisetz Suzuki, you remember, this wonderful old Zen philosopher, who was over here. He was in his 90s. He started to lecture in Switzerland that I heard in Ascona. He stood up with his hands on his side, and he said, “God against man, man against God, man against nature, nature against man, nature against God, God against nature. Very funny religion.”

    Now, in the other mythologies, one puts oneself in accord with the world. If the world is a mixture of good and evil, you do not put yourself in accord with it. You identify with the good and you fight against the evil, and this is a religious system which belongs to the Near East, following Zarathustra’s time. It’s in the biblical tradition, all the way, in Christianity and in Islam as well. This business of not being with nature, and we speak with sort of derogation of “the nature religions.” You see, with that fall in the garden, nature was regarded as corrupt. There’s a myth for you that corrupts the whole world for us. And every spontaneous act is sinful, because nature is corrupt and has to be corrected, must not be yielded to. You get a totally different civilization, a totally different way of living according to your myth as to whether nature is fallen or whether nature is itself a manifestation of divinity, and the spirit being the revelation of the divinity that’s inherent in nature.

    BILL MOYERS: Don’t you think that Americans, modern Americans, have rejected this idea, this Indian idea, this ancient idea of nature as revealing the divinity, because it would have kept us from achieving dominance over nature?

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Yeah, but that’s the biblical condemnation of nature that they inherited from their own religion and brought with them. God is not in nature, God is separate from nature, and nature is not God, and this distinction between God and the world is not to be found in basic Hinduism or Buddhism, either.
    I’ll never forget the experience I had when I was in Japan. To be in a place that never heard of the fall in the garden of Eden. To be in a place where I can read in one of the Shinto texts, “The processes of nature cannot be evil.” When every impulse, every natural impulse, is not to be corrected, but to be sublimated, you know, to be beautified. And the glorious interest in the beauty of nature and cooperation with nature, and coordination, so that in some of those gardens you don’t know where nature begins and art ends. This to me was a tremendous experience, and it’s another mythology.

    BILL MOYERS: Speaking of different mythologies, let’s just have a little fun here. I took these from your atlas.

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.

    BILL MOYERS: I’ll read from Genesis, and then you identify and read from the corresponding …

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.

    BILL MOYERS: Genesis 1: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them. Then God blessed them and God said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply.’

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: And now this is from a legend of the Bassari people of West Africa. “Unumbotte made a human being, its name was Man. Unumbotte next made all antelope, named Antelope. Unumbotte made a snake, named Snake. And Unumbotte said to them, ‘The earth has not yet been pounded. You must pound the ground smooth where you are sitting.’ Unumbone gave them seeds of all kinds and said, ‘Go plant these.'”

    BILL MOYERS: And Genesis 1: “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.”

    JOSEPH CAMPBELL: And from the Upanishad: “Then he realized, I indeed am this creation, for I have poured it forth from myself. In that way he became this creation, and verily he who knows this becomes in this creation a creator.” That’s the clincher there. When you know this, then you’ve identified with the creative principle yourself, which is the God-power in the world, which means in you. It’s beautiful.
     
  15. Rapture Era

    Rapture Era Active Member

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    What you are missing here is that one, God does not want anyone to perish in hell. He does want everyone to spend all of eternity in heaven. This is why he did intervene by Jesus leaving his realm and come to earth for the sole purpose of being the only sacrifice acceptable to God on our behalf for our sin! Jesus also told us "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets into heaven accept through me." He paid your penalty for sin, and all he asks, is that you believe by faith that he did that and rose on the third day from the grave. Which by the way was witnessed by over 500 people, its a historical fact.
    Yes, free will/choice is apart of your human condition. God has cleared the path for you to get into heaven for all eternity. But you have to make the choice, accept his conditions, or, reject them. And yes, you are correct, "Why would any rational human on the planet, willfully choose to spend an eternity of everlasting suffering?"
    This life was never intended to be finite, God created humans to live with him forever. But there came a problem. Satan. When sin entered the picture, everything changed. Satan hates God, and he hates you as well because out of all of the creation, humans were a personal creation of God. Because of that, Satan tried to stop salvation for man from happening through Herod the great during the time Jesus was born, but failed. Satan thought he had finally won by killing Jesus on the cross but it backfired when Jesus rose from the dead, just as he said he would on the third day. Because of this, Jesus defeated Satan and now every person who wants to spend eternity in heaven can, if they choose to accept the terms. We accept terms all the time and willfully do to continue with many things we do online. They will ask, do you accept the terms and agreements before going any further. We click,
    "I agree." Why wouldn't you agree to accept Gods terms to escape an eternity in hell (which Satan would love to keep you from) and be in heaven after you die? It's kind of a no brainer right?

    Listen, God wants a personal relationship with you, not the politics of a church. You actually brought up some very important facts. However, Gods promise of spending eternity in heaven is not an impossible reward. Secondly, there is a guilt, its called sin. You cannot live in heaven in sin. This is why God provided a way out through his son Jesus. Thirdly, he did provide a way as I mentioned above. Finally, the only thing left is whether you want to accept his free gift of salvation through his Son Jesus or not. I'ts completely up to you. Yes or no.
    You know, so much of what you said here is absolutely true. Whats interesting is that people plan their vacation better than they plan their eternity! So, whats more important? We don't know when our last day on earth is, accidents happen all the time. Wouldn't be prudent to KNOW, you are covered no matter if you live a long life or it gets snuffed out by some accident where you will spend your eternity? Your final destination is in your hands, you choose. God doesnt send anyone to hell and he doesnt send anyone to heaven. He paid your ticket to heaven but it doesnt belong to you unless you accept it. Something to think about.
     
  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Yes, this is so true! It is why I have a scarf in my
    bag at all times. If I notice I am about to die, I
    will quick put it on and tell Allah I am sorry
    I sinned so, going about with, like my
    hair uncovered!!!!!

    Hope I am quick enough! Or should I just start
    now? I do hate to, I like just having a ponytail.
    But is it worth the risk? Lookee what awaits if
    I screw up!!!!

    Hanging by my hair in a fire, forever!!! When my
    skin burns off, another will grow so it can be
    burned off! Owie!!!
    islamic hell - Google Search:
     
  17. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Are you kidding me? You really think people haven't heard this same speech about magic blood sacrifice and Matthew over and over?

    It's not historical at all, that is a lie. I think you know that the gospels authors were anonymous and not eyewitness. Why do Christians often lie about historicity? Believing it is one thing but saying it's a historical fact is an outright lie. You're the one preaching sin but telling lies?

    Wiki-
    "The historical reliability of the gospels refers to the reliability and historic character of the four New Testament gospels as historical documents. Little in the four canonical gospels is considered to be historically reliable."



    You're telling the story wrong. God used Satan as a hitman first. God used satan to torture people in the myths. Satan was an angel of god in early stories.
    Your story of Satan is a modern re-telling.

    In 2 Samuel 24, Yahweh sends the "Angel of Yahweh" to inflict a plague against Israel for three days, killing 70,000 people as punishment for David having taken a census without his approval.[17] 1 Chronicles 21:1 repeats this story,[17] but replaces the "Angel of Yahweh" with an entity referred to as "a satan".[17]

    Some passages clearly refer to the satan, without using the word itself.
    [18] 1 Samuel 2:12 describes the sons of Eli as "sons of Belial";[19] the later usage of this word makes it clearly a synonym for "satan".[19] In 1 Samuel 16:14-23 Yahweh sends a "troubling spirit" to torment King Saul as a mechanism to ingratiate David with the king.[20] In 1 Kings 22:19-25, the prophet Micaiah describes to King Ahab a vision of Yahweh sitting on his throne surrounded by the Host of Heaven.[19] Yahweh asks the Host which of them will lead Ahab astray.[19] A "spirit", whose name is not specified, but who is analogous to the satan, volunteers to be "a Lying Spirit in the mouth of all his Prophets".[19]


    Then God allows Satan to torture Job, "everything changed" - maybe god shouldn't have told Satan to torture people?! The revision of Satans role happened in the Middle Ages with Dante and witchcraft.

    Book of Job
    The satan appears in the Book of Job, a poetic dialogue set within a prose framework,[21] which may have been written around the time of the Babylonian captivity.[21] In the text, Job is a righteous man favored by Yahweh.[21] Job 1:6-8 describes the "sons of God" (bənê hāʼĕlōhîm) presenting themselves before Yahweh.[21] Yahweh asks one of them, "the satan", where he has been, to which he replies that he has been roaming around the earth.[21] Yahweh asks, "Have you considered My servant Job?"[21] The satan replies by urging Yahweh to let him torture Job, promising that Job will abandon his faith at the first tribulation.[22] Yahweh consents; the satan destroys Job's servants and flocks, yet Job refuses to condemn Yahweh.[22] The first scene repeats itself, with the satan presenting himself to Yahweh alongside the other "sons of God".[23] Yahweh points out Job's continued faithfulness, to which the satan insists that more testing is necessary;[23] Yahweh once again gives him permission to test Job.[23] In the end, Job remains faithful and righteous, and it is implied that the satan is shamed in his defeat.[24]


    In Christianity, Satan is also known as the Devil and, although the Book of Genesis does not mention him, he is often identified as the serpent in the Garden of Eden. In the Middle Ages, Satan played a minimal role in Christian theology and was used as a comic relief figure in mystery plays. During the early modern period, Satan's significance greatly increased as beliefs such as demonic possession and witchcraft became more prevalent. During the Age of Enlightenment, belief in the existence of Satan became harshly criticized. Nonetheless, belief in Satan has persisted, particularly in the Americas.
     
    #1397 joelr, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  18. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    I think "Skeptic Thinker" is correct, once the sermonizing begins, all rational thinking ends. What I find disturbing, is how you can actually agree with my reasoning/rationale in one breath, and still rote parrot your indoctrinated belief soundbites in the next breath. Clearly, you do not agree with me. The only thing I find more disturbing, is listening to an adult telling children's stories to other adults(other than "dancing baby").



    Let me repeat. You DO NOT KNOW,

    Anything about what a God wants or needs
    Anything about what a God is thinking, or His purpose
    Anything about a God's character or nature
    Anything about a God's existence, or non-existence
    Anything about the Words of a God

    So please stop asserting your belief claims as truth claims. Can you deposit any evidence to support your claims? I didn't think so. So far you have avoided presenting evidence like the plague. I get it. You are afraid of death like most people. I understand that despite the overwhelming physical evidence that death is the permanent absence of conscious awareness, you must believe that only divine intervention/prophecy can violate all natural laws and cheat death. If someone said to stand on your head 10 minutes a day, and give away $100 per month to a charity, you would probably ignore him. But if someone promised that he could make death only a doorway to a new spiritual life, I guarantee that I would have a few nibbles. It is amazing how many different belief systems try to exploit our fear of death. We are the only creatures on the planet, that are cognisant of our own mortality(not imminent death). It is this awareness that leads to our fear and make us vulnerable. People will spend any amount of money, try any method of treatment, or go to any lengths to prolong their lives. So, the belief in divine intervention/prophecy is not exactly a great leap of faith.

    Is ones altruism fueled by their religious fears, or by their philanthropic and humanitarian nature? One just seems more disingenuous and selfish to me. The other seems the more honest. Which one are you? Do you want to save the souls of your fellow humans, because you care about the fate of their souls in the afterlife, or are you just hedging your bets for personal gain? I asked you, have you been suffering, or in pain for over 14 Billion years? No answer. So why are you so afraid of what will happen after you die? No answer. Not only do we have no control, but we have all experienced non-life/existence before. If you want to thank God for something, thank Him for being lucky enough to have had the opportunity to experience life. Our lifespan is so short, it would rival Planck time. In other words, life is far far far too short to not appreciate the ride. If you are wrong, what a life you've wasted. If I am wrong, what a life I've had.
     
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  19. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    I have to ask: is Satan still forced to crawl on his belly? If not, what happened to Gods verdict when he was found guilty to propose bad apples?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  20. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    You've got some weird ideas about what facts are.

    It's not an historical fact that 500 people witnessed anything, given that we don't actually have anything written down anywhere from those alleged witnesses. Anybody can say a bunch of people saw a thing. That doesn't make it an "historical fact."
     
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