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Featured The creator did it.

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by A REAL CHRISTIAN, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. Rapture Era

    Rapture Era Active Member

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    Yes I agree, what we disagree on is the actual cause. How did these things originate, or to be able to evolve into higher and diverse
    We have a family we met in the Virgin Islands, Specifically the Island of Anguilla back in 1990. When Hurricane Irma swept across the Caribbean in September of last year, inflicting catastrophic damage to several islands during the worst of the Category 5 storm. I was able to contact the family we were concerned about through Instant Message, and a person on the Island whom I saw on YouTube and contacted helped our being able to contact them.. Anyway to your point, she was saying that after the storm, the bugs were relentless! When I watched the video of someone filming through a window, 200mph winds, I thought that every bug on that island was swept away, or at least a good %tage of them anyway. Not so, they hide and come out to play when its all over. So, yes what you are saying is correct.
    "Monstrosities are NOT what we expect."
    Well, you might not want to expect them, but, if life evolved the way you say, from simple to complex, the fact that these monstrosities, which would have numbered in the billions by the way, are missing!:oops: You're talking a very long time span for these things to evolve from simple to complex (which is scientifically and otherwise) , IMPOSSIBLE!
    But, okay, this is what you hold on to. Simple to complex to human.
    Say whaaaaat?:confused: I'm really curious, when you say, "In fact, we expect small changes from generation to generation, but with those changes accumulating over many such generations." What are you saying exactly? Without proper instructions, there are no changes to accumulate, right? What is telling the cell to advance into a higher form? Does evolution make decisions? Does it have that capability? If so, where did it come from? How does it know what is friend or foe? As is talked about in the immune system description.
    We disagree. The diversity of languages originated at the "Tower of Babel" when God confused their language and sent them to various parts of the earth which is exactly what we see and experience today. One language never evolved from another. Whats interesting is your comment: "One analogy that is good is the changes in languages over time. French, Spanish, and English simply didn't exist 2000 years ago."
    You know whats interesting? Villani adds that it "was begun 700 years after the Flood, and there were 2,354 years from the beginning of the world to the confusion of the Tower of Babel. And we find that they were 107 years working at it; and men lived long in those times". Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=howlong+ago+was+the+tower+of+bable+dispursed?&rlz=1C1GIGM_enUS772US772&oq=howlong+ago+was+the+tower+of+bable+dispursed?&aqs=chrome..69i57.20372j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
    Yes of course it is:D The Big Bang according to naturalists exploded matter (formless matter) throughout the universe.
    so·lu·tion
    Dictionary result for solution
    /səˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/
    noun
    plural noun: solutions
    1. 1.
      a means of solving a problem or dealing with a difficult situation.
      "there are no easy solutions to financial and marital problems"
    2. a liquid mixture in which the minor component (the solute) is uniformly distributed within the major component (the solvent).
      synonyms: mixture, mix, blend, compound, suspension, tincture, infusion, emulsion, colloid, gel, fluid;
      aerosol
      "a solution of ammonia in water"
    Any comment on this?
     
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  2. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    The Creation myth in Genesis makes more sense to you, because it is simple and easy to understand, "God did it". That's it, just by magic. Since no one can disprove a fantasy, then with a wave of His hand and the utterance of His words, all time, space, physics, galaxies, stars, planets, and all living things(according to their kind), was all made possible. All fully functional and all fully formed. Once we have convinced ourselves that "God did it", cognitive dissonance starts to takes over. It insulates us from any inductive and deductive reasoning. Only the top-down logic is permitted to discourage any form of self-scrutiny, biblical scrutiny, or the ability to laterally think. In fact, anything that would challenge your presuppositional biases(Confirmation and Cognitive) is dismissed without any serious attention. You don't really believe that somewhere an interspatial, interdimensional workshop exists, where a white bearded old man is creating the blueprints of what all of reality will look like, do you? Surely, you can see why this explanation should only exist in the world of the imagination, not in the world of science? Is this the kind science you really want your kids to learn?

    We learn from our mistakes and our successes. Life itself learns and evolves from its mistakes and its successes. Everything begins as simple, and through many stages become more complex. Complexity is always based on simplicity, and comes with its own inherent problems. The human body began as two simple cells, and eventually differentiates into an interdependent complex organism. "Which parts of the body developed first?". I would say that the "Embryonic Stem Cells were developed first. Without these cells, regeneration, colonization, and multicellularity would be impossible. Many Biological scientists agree that stem cells is a necessary prerequisite for Evolution. Of course, without these stem cells the embryo would spontaneously abort anyway.

    Regarding random mutations, be specific. There are many different types of mutations. Some species did not survive because of these mutations. But enough did survive to compensate for their error coding. Some mutated genes are just not expressed(recessive). Some are in the form of vestigial organs, and non-functional. Some mutations are only beneficial to the organism under certain environmental conditions. We can still see these mutations in our genes, since nature has a problem with getting rid of any adverse and superfluous genes. These random mutated genes ARE passed onto the next generations, but are usually not expressed(recessive). So think of it as Nature adjusting genes to fit a changing environment, over vast periods of time, through trial and error. Sometimes it works, but 99.99% of the time it doesn't.

    All of the processes you mentioned can easily be seen at various stages of complexity, throughout the kingdom of life. Our biological processes and functions are more specialized as some, and less specialized than others. They have evolved not from design, but from necessity. Did you know that we barely survived extinction ourselves? Do you really think that Doctors, and other body specialists, view the body with the same incomprehension and awe as you do. Ignorance is always replaced by knowledge. The more knowledge, the less awe.

    At what exact point do you determine the transition between a baby and a toddler. Or between a adolescent and an adult. Yet you seriously expect the fossil records to demonstrate the exact point of separation of two separate species, like the silly "crocoduck" proposed by other proponents of this silly interpretation of Evolution. What we can certainly demonstrate is an obvious morphological pattern of changes from one species into another. The fossil records clearly demonstrates this. You still refuse to understand, that it may take millions of tiny changes over millions of years, to produce any obvious observable changes. If the world suddenly was covered by water a mile deep, the human race would be faced with extinction. But if it took a billion years to cover the earth, we would have time to develop some form of gills to adapt. We still have the genes to develop gills. Why do you refuse to understand this?

    How does understanding of our immune system(and its components),demonstrate that "God did it". Are you saying that because you are in awe, that it must be supernatural. I might be awed by the skills of a brain surgeon, but I wouldn't invoke a supernatural cause. That would only be an expression of arrogance and ignorance. Do you understand that the components of the immune system were once only single cell organisms? None of these things happened over night. It took billions of years of trial and error, the right environmental conditions, the right amount of sustainable survival resources, and the right transfer of genetic materials to sustain evolution. Although, a little luck didn't hurt.

    Do you think that man was ever meant to be perfect? What do you think would happen to the human race, if humans were perfect, or near-Godlike? Evolution will continue to occur, with or without your understanding.
     
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  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    In every population there are variations: hair color, strength, ability to digest lactose, etc. These variations are the results of mutations (differences in the genes). As the environment changes, some of those variations are more able to survive and reproduce. This means that the next generation is more adapted to the new environment. of course, if the environment changes too quickly and there isn't enough variation, the population may go extinct. But, if it doesn't, it ends up getting new variations because of new mutations, allowing it to adapt to the environment if it changes again. These small changes add up over many generations and *that* is what evolution is.

    Sorry, but it is a simple fact. We can even see the evolution of Spanish, French, and English over time from the writings that survive from different time periods. I'd suggest you go try to read Chaucer in the original if you think English hasn't evolved. Both French and Spanish have a long literature that shows the changes over time from Latin to the modern languages.

    The Tower of Babel had nothing to do with languages.
     
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  4. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Because what is there supports his/her preconceived notions?
     
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  5. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    'I can't handle being so wrong all the time, so I am going to get in one last dig and ignore all the fallacies, errors, etc., that I have made in my over-the-top, self-aggrandizing that you all have exposed and move on to a whole new set.'
     
  6. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Please note that Rapture Era replied to this post, but not the parts in red (I have omitted comments that were not actual or implied questions):

    That is not evolution that is abiogenesis. Why the conflation? Don't you know any better?


    Tell me about it all - pretend I know nothing about it. What is "information" in a cell? How much is required, and how do you know?



    Wow, seems like a great argument against evolution,but it seems very very thin on the details.


    So.... You don't understand that you are making two different arguments?

    Evolution is about the changes that occur in living things.


    Can you really critically think that one of many ancient Hebrew tribal deities is really the one true God, and that this tribal deity created the universe from noting in a day and made a man from dust?
     
  7. He has Risen!

    He has Risen! JESUS IS LORD FOR HE HAS RISEN FROM THE DEAD

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    Tas you should, but you don't have to, "Write something worthy of a response!"
     
  8. He has Risen!

    He has Risen! JESUS IS LORD FOR HE HAS RISEN FROM THE DEAD

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    Here is the testimony of what Paul had claimed...
    1Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
    6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
    7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
    8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
    9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
    10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
    11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.


    First Corinthians was written within 20 years of the death and resurrection of Jesus. What Paul is alluding to when he said "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received" at the beginning of this passage was the oral proclamation of the church. In verse 9 Paul states that he seen Jesus after he had been raised from the dead. If you read the book of Acts in its entirety you will find this one major theme, "The resurrection Appearances of Jesus" over and over again, in support of the claim that Jesus made of himself to be "The Son of God and The Savior of man!"
     
  9. He has Risen!

    He has Risen! JESUS IS LORD FOR HE HAS RISEN FROM THE DEAD

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    Hey Rapture man,
    I read and agree with your views but let me also add the fact that if DNA accumulates many mutations while copying itself, that will eventually cause the death of the person, "Why do people believe that 1 out of 100 mutations that are beneficial will make the specie evolve into a better state instead of declining into a lower state?" Most of the mutation go from being not beneficial to harmful, very few would be considered beneficial.
    Just my thoughts on this topic of "The Creator Did It".

    From AIG
    Taking a biblical stand does not undermine science; it illuminates science, just like reliable eyewitness testimony enables a detective to correctly interpret the circumstantial evidence at the scene of a crime. Furthermore, evolutionists have their own “god of the gaps.” The evolutionary “god of the gaps” consists of time, chance, and the laws of nature , which alone do not and cannot explain the incredible design of living and fossilized creatures or the massive geological formations that we see across the world. But the intelligent, holy, sovereign God of the Bible and His acts in history (as recorded in the Bible) can and do explain incredibly well what we observe.
     
    #989 He has Risen!, Feb 23, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Yes, all that Paul had were unsubstantiated claims. No eyewitness accounts. Thank you.
     
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  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Please note, AiG is not a reliable source for science topics. People that work there have to swear not to follow the scientific method. And you are conflating mutations that occur in the body and mutations that occur in germ cells. To very different things. Mutations that occur in the body are not subject to natural selection. Bad mutations will build up. They are eventually deadly if allowed to continue to occur. Mutations that are passed on are subject to natural selection. Harmful mutations are eliminated by that process.
     
  12. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    It's like you have no understanding whatsoever concerning what natural selection is, or how the accumulation of small micro changes inevitably end up accumulating into big changes over time.
     
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  13. Rapture Era

    Rapture Era Active Member

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    PART 1
    Yes, it is simple, but no, that's not the reason it makes more sense to me. It goes much deeper than that. In fact, true, honest science is confirming the immense intelligence and design behind Gods creation.
    “Just by magic”? No, by his power! He is demonstrating his intellect and design and his power by all that we see in existence from the universe to the micro universe.
    Fantasy? Are you claiming that all God said he made is imaginary? Are the words you used below "all time, space, physics, galaxies, stars, planets, and all living things(according to their kind), was all made possible. All fully functional and all fully formed." Which of these descriptions do you feel is make-believe and unreal?
    Yes, the plain text of Genesis states exactly that and the world we belong to is subject to these laws he established.
    No it doesn'to_O Just because "God did it" doesn't stop us from exploring and thinking and experimenting and learning about his creation whether in the vastness of the cosmos or the vastness of the microscopic universe. He has given us a brain to think critically, to achieve all that science has achieved to help benefit mankind, advance in the knowledge of our world, how it works and, unfortunately, advance in better ways to kill to the point of global destruction.
    I absolutely agree with you! Your description is a classic one of fantasy! And you are right, science would not validate this kind of nonsense. One of my sons graduated cum laude majoring in Bio-Chemistry. My youngest is majoring in Chemistry. So science is a huge part of their education, and this is what my boys are learning. Nothing wrong with the sciences, they are awesome! I love science! HOWEVER! When you make the mistake of inferring from what science is NOT revealing to you, you have now stepped outside of science and into fantasy to proclaim anything you like.
    I had to laugh at your first sentence:D Not what you said but the fact that some people I know never learn from their mistakes!:oops: I don't remember the name of the man who said this, but it was at a conference 25 years ago, he said, "I dont measure my success by the things I did right, I measure my success by the things I did wrong." I like this one, "No one ever learned anything by doing it right the first time." Real world experience I think we all have had were the brain-twisting problems that we struggled with in certain situations, are always the ones you remember!
    When you say, "Life itself learns and evolves from its mistakes and its successes", could you be a little more specific?
    "Complexity is always based on simplicity, and comes with its own inherent problems." This too is vague and I'd like to understand what you mean.
    "The human body began as two simple cells, and eventually differentiates into an interdependent complex organism. "Which parts of the body developed first?". I would say that the "Embryonic Stem Cells were developed first. Without these cells, regeneration, colonization, and multicellularity would be impossible. Many Biological scientists agree that stem cells is a necessary prerequisite for Evolution. Of course, without these stem cells the embryo would spontaneously abort anyway.
    Yes it did, one from your father, and one from your mother. Second part of that sentence is correct also. Due to the immense information in those two cells, they divided and set out to build the model of you in a manner that makes good sense. For example, a home builder begins with plans (genetic information). The foundation is first, then framing, electrical, plumbing, windows etc., etc., in a progressive manor that ends up being a beautiful well built home. During the development period in your mothers womb, this same kind of things are taking place in an orderly fashion. The interesting thing about your statement above is that when you say, "Without these cells, regeneration, colonization, and multicellularity would be impossible" the genetic information for these things to take place didn't come about by themselves. Honest science agrees. Again, scientists who generalize from observance what they want to believe took place, have left science and gone down the road leading to made-up hypotheses to fit their liking. When these highly educated scientists who leave science to encourage others to follow them and their unscientific reasoning, this is bad science, false science.
    "Of course, without these stem cells the embryo would spontaneously abort anyway"
    Right, without any intelligent plans by which a fetus develops in a systematic way into a fully formed human being as marvelous as that is, the wrong sequence of events in development would lead to a non-survivability condition which is the ability to remain alive or continue to exist. This is the point I have been trying to make with the evolutionary simple to complex to human beings. It takes intelligence and design for these cells to carry out all of functions needed to produce offspring of all living things from fish, birds, animals, reptiles, insects and human beings.
    I generally agree with what you are saying here. One thing to remember though, mutation are never good. Mutation always are downward, never upward. So, in the sense of mutations moving upward and causing better things to happen and evolve in an evolutionary sagacity, is just not possible. Variation is possible within the kind, we see this all the time in dogs for example. However, other species do not associate. Crows don't breed with vultures, who dont breed with owls, you get the idea. Why? because the information of variation does not exist in the DNA for them to do so.
    "So think of it as Nature adjusting genes to fit a changing environment, over vast periods of time, through trial and error. Sometimes it works, but 99.99% of the time it doesn't."
    Well, I understand variation in the sense that a dog from a litter with short hair verses its sibling with long hair will die of quickly in a freezing environment only allowing the preceding generation will be long haired dogs.
    "Nature adjusting genes to fit a changing environment"
    What we see here is variation built into the genetic make-up. Nature cannot make decisions, however these things do happen in nature because they are allowed to by the genetic variety instructions.
     
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  14. Rapture Era

    Rapture Era Active Member

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    PART 2

    Quick question, how does this matter know what is necessary or not? Without self-aware consciousness, nothing knows anything as to its's needs. A dog sees a car coming, it gets out of the way because it is aware of its environment but doesn't know why. It doesn't know its alive or dead. So how can biological matter know what is necessary or not?

    Well, I dont know if you have had kids,but, my experience with three boys is they no longer depended on my wife and I for everything. They are able to play more on their own, and develop a greater sense of self. They can get things out of the refrigerator themselves. This is my experience with knowing the exact transition between baby and toddler, adolescent and adult, same kind of thing.

    From a creation standpoint, the fossil record is clear, all of the species that are found have no evolutionary ancestors. They were created fully formed and with the ability to procreate. That is what we see in these layers. So I do expect the fossil record to reveal exactly what it does reveal, a huge variety of fully formed creatures.

    FinallyI wasn't aware of this, yuo mean like fish becoming land animals?

    Whats interesting about this statement is that you said above "These random mutated genes ARE passed onto the next generations, but are usually not expressed(recessive). So think of it as Nature adjusting genes to fit a changing environment, over vast periods of time, through trial and error. Sometimes it works, but 99.99% of the time it doesn't." So how are these millions of small changes over millions of years from the first simple cells able to survive? You see, entropy and vast time periods work against you, not for you, can you understand this?

    Right, well, your first sentence is absolutely true, however, there were 8 people who survived this world wide deluge. So the human race was not wiped out. Ever wonder why written language only goes back about 4,500 years?

    Well, no offence, but I refuse to believe this because it is not true. I'd like for you to think about something here. I will give you something, and that is the presupposition that fish were the only things in existence at one point in time. I'll ignore the possibility they could exist and procreate. Okay, so we have fish in the sea. What do you think was the first mutation that started this process of coming out of the water and surviving on dry land. If a fish comes out of its environment, what happens? It dies. Do you realize what genetic changes that would have to take place in order for a fish to become a land animal? And it doesnt matter how much time you throw at it. How would it have babies? What would it need to change first to survive out of water? What would it eat? How would its internal organ break down its food for nutrition to survive? How would its eyes be of any purpose? How would its body adapt? How would the environment affect its body? When you start critically thinking about this, you eventually come to the conclusion that this kind of evolution is absolutely absurd.

    Bro, think about this, you are describing things that cannot happen and assuming they could if the environmental conditions were just right. Here is another perspective. A transcendent creator, created the universe, this planet and all life on this planet exactly the perfect distance from our Star, on the perfect axis and rotation and gravity along with all the other laws the universe and we abide by, with the perfect environment for all varieties of life in the perfect eco-systems for them to survive. He provided the same for human beings and all the air breathing animals so that they could survive and procreate. I guess the question is, which one of these perspective, evolution or creation make more sense.

    When God created man according to the biblical scriptures, he was perfect. God only creates perfect because he is perfect. So yes, I believe man was created to be eternal and perfect. There is also something that is never discussed. Everyone wants to blame God for all the bad things that happen. "If he is so loving, why doesn't he stop evil in the world?" This is brought up all the time. What is never brought up is the perpetrator of evil. The perpetrator is Satan himself. Let me just say this because this issue is a whole other thread, but, Satan hates God. He also hates the pinnacle of Gods creation, Human Beings meaning you. Why, because never in the creation account did God personalize any of his creation. He just spoke, let there be this and it was. But when he spoke to the trinity as Genesis chapter 1 verse 26-29 states, God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Now, before any of you try to condemn me and charge me for proselytism, I'm just telling you what the text says in response to "Truly Enlightened's" question. I'm not trying to covert you.

    "Evolution will continue to occur, with or without your understanding."

    Finally, I do understand evolution as all of you have described it, I've always understood it. And don't come back with I'm confused between evolution and abiogenesis, I'm not. Evolution will only continue to occur in your own mind with or without your own understanding. I understand that as well.
     
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  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I sincerely doubt your claims about understanding evolution. The questions that you ask tell us that you lack understanding. Let's limit your posts to one question at a time. Once an answer is clear we can move on to the next one.

    Does that sound reasonable?
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    This is an example of a claim that tells us that you do not understand evolution. Evolution is largely due to two processes, variation, which rarely produces "monstrosities" and selection, which will remove monstrosities almost immediately. There will never be enough of them to be well represented in the fossil record at all. Their absence is predicted by the theory of evolution.
     
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  17. He has Risen!

    He has Risen! JESUS IS LORD FOR HE HAS RISEN FROM THE DEAD

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    [​IMG]
     
  18. He has Risen!

    He has Risen! JESUS IS LORD FOR HE HAS RISEN FROM THE DEAD

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    from Google...
    A germ cell mutation is any detectable and heritable variation in the lineage of germ cells. The presence of an altered gene within the egg and sperm (germ cell) such that the altered gene can be passed to subsequent generations.

    Subduction,
    Point to any mutation at any time in the progression of a person from conception until till death that has not been outweighed by the damaging effects of mutations to the human development.
     
  19. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    LOL, you still don't know how to apply logical fallacies.
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Until you learn the difference between a mutation in a germ cell and a mutation in a somatic cell we will not get anywhere. You are still conflating the two.

    Somatic cells are the non-reproductive cells in your body. Mutations for them are quite often bad since there is no natural selection for those cells. Mutations will continue to add up if they keep reproducing. That is totally different from a mutation in a germ cell. In fact you have on the order of one hundred mutations in the genome that was passed on to you. Most of those mutations, perhaps all, are benign. If a gamete gets a bad mutation it will often not even survive and develop at all. Or if it does survive it will usually die young and not pass own that mutation. Natural selection removes bad mutations from the genome. If on the other hand a positive mutation occurs that increases the odds of the new gene being passed on and that improves a species.
     
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