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The "CREATION" story -here a little, there a little (edited)

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Etritonakin, Aug 14, 2015.

  1. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

    May 16, 2010
    I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone -I'm just trying to show what is and is not written in the bible about God as designer and creator, and to point out that assumptions about what is written don't necessarily have anything to do with what is actually written.

    Though I make some statements based on my own beliefs, this is not meant to be for or against Creationism or Evolution -but to motivate all to ignore preconceptions and consider what is actually written in Genesis and other books of the bible. I find the Creationism vs. Evolution controversy to be pointless and counterproductive, and hope this might decrease adversarial attitudes.

    Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little

    Some are afraid to question what they assume is meant by what is written, or what they have been taught by others -which often equates only to their assumptions.

    Many believe that Genesis concerns the very beginning of God's creative activity -but that is not consistent with what is written in Genesis or other parts of the bible.

    Only the first (extremely vague and general) statement in Genesis concerns the very beginning of the universe and the Earth.

    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth."

    Scientists estimate that the Big Bang occurred approximately 14 billion Earth years ago.

    Scientists estimate that the first life forms may have been present on Earth 2.5 - 3.5 billion years ago.

    The first statement of Genesis gives no time frame whatsoever -nor does it say that God "poofed" the universe and the Earth into existence instantaneously. It does not suggest that God had been inactive for eternity and suddenly let fly a universe and a planet.
    It's just a general statement.

    Here are some other verses about God's creative activity....
    Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    This indicates a period of construction -and that what is seen is made of that which is not seen.

    When God answers Job in the book of the same name, it is indicated that much time, planning and work went into bringing the earth into existence. God also essentially tells Job he has no idea what God has been doing forever and how he has been doing it. Furthermore, it indicates that when Earth was finally completed, its state was such that it caused the angels (sons of God) to shout for joy. So -according to "the bible", the earth was not waste and ruin/formless and void at its completion. Perhaps what we call "nature" or "life" could have even caused such a reaction.

    Job 38:4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?8Orwhoshut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth,as ifit had issued out of the womb?9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,10And brake up for it my decreedplace, and set bars and doors,11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

    It's not as if it would do any good to talk shop with a goat herder about energy and physics..... and knowledge, according to "the bible", would not significantly increase until the "time of the end" (Daniel 12:4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.) Furthermore, the increase of knowledge was purposefully slowed by the confusion of speech at Babel.

    Let's consider the next statement in Genesis. It is usually translated as follows -which can seem to indicate that what follows concerns the very beginning of the earth.

    Genesis 1:2 And the Earth was formless and and void.

    However, the word translated "was" can be translated "had become" or "became" (become/come to pass) -and this translation is consistent with other scriptures. It allows for any amount of time from the initialization of the process of the creation of the universe/completion of the Earth and the Earth becoming formless and void/waste and ruin at some unspecified time and for some unspecified reason.

    (That could have included the extinction of some species which existed prior -and may not have even been a complete extinction. It vaguely states that the earth was/became essentially messed up.)

    That is not me trying to make my beliefs fit what is written, that is what is allowed by the definitions of what is written -and is consistent with other scriptures.

    So -what follows in Genesis would then be an un-messing-up of the once joy-shout-inspiring Earth.

    So -does the bible say anything about what happened from the initialization of the creation of the universe until what follows in Genesis?

    Yes -and specifically about things which happened on Earth.

    Satan had already turned against God when he encountered Eve in Eden. What happened before Satan was on earth in Eden?

    Isaiah 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    Revelation 12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Satan ascended into heaven from beneath the clouds, and led a coup against the throne of God. It was put down, and he and his angels were cast out into the Earth -having great wrath (as described elsewhere). We are becoming aware of mankind's ability to destroy the earth -how much more would angelic beings have? It is not specified, as far as I know, that Satan and his angels were responsible for the ruining of the Earth, but war does cause destruction and it would follow the timeline. Satan is also called Abbadon and Appolyon (destruction/destroyer).

    So, then, darkness was upon the face of the deep -and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Note that the deep was already there -on the earth -and there was darkness. Is what happens next the initial creation of our sun? It is not specified. God said "Let there be light" -and there was light. God essentially shed some light on the subject -nothing else is specified thus far.

    Why was there darkness upon the face of the deep? It is not specified. Was there no sun? Was the sun dimmed somehow? Was something blocking the sun as would be the case with a "nuclear winter"? Was the moon in the way? It is not specified.

    God separated the light from the darkness, called the light day and the darkness night -there was evening and then morning -the first "day".

    Specifically, the first "day" ever? No -the first of the seven in Genesis. It does indicate rotation of the earth in relation to a light source. How long was a day at this point? It is not specified.

    On the second "day", God separated the waters below from the waters above and called it sky. That has to do with the water cycle, atmosphere, etc....

    On the third "day", God separated the water from dry land (the deep was apparently covering the land to some degree -this could include causing ice by affecting temperature, affecting levels of dry land -and the water cycle of the second day could account for some water being suspended in the atmosphere -perhaps water escaping into space [happens even now]), and caused flora to thrive.

    It is not until the fourth day that timing/specific relationships between celestial bodies is ordered -or corrected/repaired -to mark years, days, seasons, etc.

    That indicates manipulation of things such as rates of spin, tilt, wobble, relative positions, timing, etc.

    Most would assume -having not seen God or angels - that nature alone had determined the relationships of those things from the Big Bang up until man began (quite recently) to have the capability of affecting such things as the Earth's wobble, the atmosphere, etc. -but we are talking about a God able to cause the sun to stand still in the sky (halt the rotation of the earth, perhaps) for an hour (Joshua 10:12-14) -angels which have abilities somewhere between those of man and God -which act through things rather than necessarily upon them, as it were -so it is understandable that "science" cannot accept such things, and such things might leave little to no evidence.

    14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

    The above might seem to say that all of the stars were made on that day -but the "he made" part is added (italics below) -if you remove the "he made", it just says that the stars were also to rule the night. Furthermore, the word "made" -where it is in the original language -does not necessarily mean an initial creation, but an appointing......

    Gen 1:16 And GodH430 madeH6213 (H853) twoH8147 greatH1419 lights;H3974 (H853) the greaterH1419 lightH3974 to ruleH4475 the day,H3117 and the lesserH6996 lightH3974 to ruleH4475 the night:H3915 he made the starsH3556 also.

    A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application: - accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck...........................

    So.... At the very least, those things written in the bible ought to show that those who wrote those things down and considered them in those times were not thinking in terms of an overall instantaneous creation of the universe -or of a young Earth, for that matter (though that is not to say that God cannot do certain things instantaneously).

    There is nothing thus far in Genesis that says physical life could not have existed on earth -or elsewhere -for any amount of time before the events of Genesis. There is nothing to say that what we call "evolution" -or its apparent timeline -did not happen or was not how God initiated life on earth.

    There is actually nothing that says the Earth was completely lifeless when it became waste and ruin -it just indicates a generally unfavorable situation. There is nothing to say that what followed in the next "days" in Genesis -the creation of fauna and "man" -was not based on life which had already been brought into existence on Earth in the time before Genesis -just as we, ourselves, are nearing the ability to resurrect extinct species.... manipulate and choose the traits of animals based on materials and data already in existence from earlier events. The bible definitely does not say that the events of Genesis were the very beginning of all things.

    It should be noted that "man" in the bible -"man" by biblical definition -refers to those beginning with Adam. It does not refer to any humanoids or early humans -or civilizations -which may have existed on Earth prior to Genesis -or even during Genesis. It refers to those who had the potential to live forever -made specifically in the image and likeness of God -beginning with Adam. It is not a scientific term which includes all humanoids.

    It should also be noted that Cain was somehow able to find a wife in Nod after he was cast out of Eden. Unless Adam and Eve had been rather busy making babies and sending them to Nod for some reason, while Cain and Abel were farming, raising animals and bringing offerings, there must have somehow been a suitable "human" mate in Nod for Cain -but not necessarily of the line of Adam

    Genesis does NOT say that Adam was the first humanoid on Earth.
    (It is indicated that he was created around 6,000 years ago.
    It has been assumed that he was the very first "man" by scientific definition -and that Genesis described the very beginning of the Earth -which has, in turn, led to the assumption that
    the Earth must only be 6,000 years old.)
    Adam was created directly, it would seem -and Eve was made by some process using material from Adam.
    However, that is not to say that God did not reference anything when he created Adam (a rib from Adam would have unique genetic material -but that is not to say that God did not create Adam by referencing previous genetic blueprints, if you will).

    Science has discovered that a very slow process of "evolution" took place which eventually resulted in modern "man".
    Slow evolutionary processes are not inconsistent with the activities of designers and creators -and would certainly not be inconsistent with a designer and creator who has been around as long as God. Even humans initiate creative processes which do not need constant attention.

    The evolution of man -specifically -would not be inconsistent with a process beginning with a thought and producing a desired result. However, man is not separate from all else.
    We do not know when God first conceived of man -but it is not at all likely that man would have been an afterthought, considering that man's potential to become the children of God -to literally become gods -is the whole point of creating the physical universe.....

    God said he formed it TO BE INHABITED.....

    Isa_45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    (creature=creation in the following)
    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    So..... if God intended for life to exist in the universe -including man and his eventual immortality -before initiating the universe, we cannot say that he did not program the emergence of life -evolution -into the big bang itself. We do not know whether or not there is life throughout the universe -not needing constant attention to thrive and produce infinite variety.

    What we do know is that now that physical life exists, even we have the power to direct its course. We are nearing the point of conceiving of a certain type of life form -with specific characteristics -and causing it to exist -independent of natural evolution, but based on it.
    We may even learn how to cause a life form which is not dependent on other life forms -perhaps even one that is not subject to death.

    (In other words.... we ARE becoming gods. The scriptures even go so far as to say we ARE gods.
    Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken......)

    Why not a solar-powered or radiation-powered life form?
    God bound us to the Earth initially for many good reasons -but there is no inherent reason why a life form needs to be dependent on consuming other life forms.

    Such may have been the case with human evolution (and the direct creation of Adam). Adam was apparently created independent of "natural evolution" -but that is not to say he was not based on it.
    This all would definitely explain why all human life cannot be traced directly back to Adam and Eve alone -and why we are made of the same stuff as everything else.

    Human evolution is based on previous life forms and reliant upon other life forms. Creating Adam independent of natural evolution might have included some unique tweaks, but his DNA may otherwise have been indistinguishable from other "men" (by scientific definition).

    What we are told is that God acted specifically to create Adam and to cause man's present state -which is one of increasing dominion over our environment -with the potential for the corruptible to put on incorruption -the mortal to put on immortality -which would be a continuation of our present course of increased dominion.

    After all -what we see is indicative of what has been..... "Rom_1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;....."

    #1 Etritonakin, Aug 14, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2015
  2. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

    May 16, 2010
    Well..... I think this is the first time I have brought my own thread to a screeching halt :oops:
  3. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
    Premium Member

    Jun 29, 2012
    I like the stick
  4. Jensen

    Jensen Active Member

    Jul 16, 2005
    Maybe because your post is too long and most people do not want to get into things that are too deep? It isn't like a conversation which is what most posters are looking for. It is more like an essay, one isn't in the habit of replying to them. Just my thoughts...
    I like the stick too. :)
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

    May 15, 2004
    Thank God! Scores of high quality translations reflecting the best scholarship of highly qualified Hebraists can be summarily dismissed because we now have you with your impressive credentials to explain what the text really means.

    BTW, just what are those credentials? :)
  6. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

    May 16, 2010

    I tend to be quite thorough (long-winded).

    Yah -I suppose I could have just said "GOD DID IT" -but they seem to frown upon that around here. o_O

    I like that picture -it is taken from the movie "The Blob". It pretty much sums up mankind's essence in one image. :)

    The Blob then emblobs him and the rest of the town -which is also pretty accurate.
  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Jun 20, 2010
    So what that it's frowned upon? What's worse is a frowned upon notion that's mired in prolixity.
  8. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

    May 16, 2010
    I should have called this thread "Genesis -Not the Beginning".

    It seems as though it is because it is the first thing you read -and the first thing in it says "In the beginning" -which seems to suggest that all that follows was in the very beginning -but that is not the case.