The Creation of Woman

[FearGod]

So you're proposing the author of Genesis was a biologist and familiar with chromosomes? Or that it was God that was familiar with this biological knowledge and felt it necessary to "dumb it down" a bit for those reading Genesis?

It have to be related to biology, if i'm right X and Y chromosomes identify sex, assuming that Adam came to existence
by DNA mutation, then the female should came to existence with similar mutations and hence both have to be of the
same kind, maybe in terms of evolution is what present the modern humans.

 

[Kev100504]

God can do anything. The only thing there is to figure out is what is the symbolic meaning of using a rib to make a woman. Perhaps it meant she would be a pain in Adams side.

God can do anything? How do u know?

 

[Polymath257]

It have to be related to biology, if i'm right X and Y chromosomes identify sex, assuming that Adam came to existence
by DNA mutation, then the female should came to existence with similar mutations and hence both have to be of the
same kind, maybe in terms of evolution is what present the modern humans.

Male and female are determined by chromosomes in mammals, like humans. So, XX is female and XY is male.But, for example, in birds, the one with the same type of chromosome is male and the one with two different types is female (AA and AB, they are called). And it is possible to be chromosomally male and physically female. If you go to amphibians and reptiles, the gender is determined by other things and is not genetic at all: temperature, for example, and change an individual from female to male and vice versa.

 

[Deeje]

Having been married three times, I can relate to the subject matter presented here.

Hmmmmm...does that make you a lousy husband or really bad at choosing a wife?

However, I'm less interested in what bone was used as to the actual procedure.

As for the procedure.....
"In the human body there are 24 of these long, slender, curved bones enclosing the chest cavity. Arranged in 12 pairs, they form a cage protecting the heart and lungs. Blood is produced in the marrow of the rib bones.

In the creation of woman, God did not make her separate and distinct from man by forming her from the dust of the ground, as he had done in the creation of Adam. He took a rib from Adam’s side, and from it He built for Adam a perfect counterpart, the woman Eve. (Ge 2:21, 22) Adam, nevertheless, remained a perfect man, now united as ‘bone of bone and flesh of flesh’ with his wife. (Ge 2:23; De 32:4) Moreover, this did not disturb the reproductive cells of Adam so as to affect his children, boys or girls, in their rib structure. The human male and female both have 24 ribs.

It is of interest to note that a rib that has been removed will grow again, replacing itself, as long as the periosteum (the membrane of connective tissue that covers the bone) is allowed to remain. Whether Jehovah God followed this procedure or not the record does not state; however, as man’s Creator, God was certainly aware of this unusual quality of the rib bones."

Rib — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[Grandliseur]

Inspired by the evolution of tendons and bones thread, and how some have trouble wrapping their heads around the evolution of these, I wish to learn from the aforementioned about something that I've had trouble wrapping my head around since I was a small child. The creation of woman in Genesis 2.

I can accept via some loose interpretation the Biblical explanation for the creation of man:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The dust of the ground is the dust of the stars, and we are composed of stardust. I can interpret this as this dust evolving over time into man and accept that we came about (not instantaneously, of course) from this substance over millions of years.

What I have trouble wrapping my head around is the creation of woman. Now if a similar notion to the creation of man was offered, I could give it a nod an move on. But...

"And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

I would appreciate if someone who has read and accepted this as truth would explain the process of removing a rib from a man and growing a woman from it here from a scientific or even rationalist perspective. Did Adam, thereafter, have only 11 pairs of ribs? Or 23 in total, one being unpaired? Did Eve have 13 pairs, or 25 ribs? How does a rib become a woman?

Your mental processes have taken to the wrong part of the universe.
When we read in Genesis 1, about the creation of the animals, all we know is that they were created according to kind, but nothing about the process was given. Thus kind could for cats mean one parent couple that gave us all the various types of cats we know, and the ones now dead and gone.

When God tells us how he created us in his image and formed man from dust, he does us a kindness. He tells us here that we were made specifically to be in his image and that we in this sense are special, even though later we are told we are just animals. This gives us a kind of feeling of being special on earth, and indeed no other animal can change the face of the world like we can, even destroy it as we are doing. Our intelligence puts us in a special one of a kind type of box.

As to the woman having been created by God taking a rib from Adam, there is the following to consider.

The rib is the only bone in humans that can grow back, if I remember correctly, so that Adam wasn't given a permanent disability.
The fact that God created woman from man's DNA and not the reverse - should also be taken as being the only way things can be since man's DNA has both the Y and X chromosomes, while the woman is all X. Thus God had when he took Adam's DNA a copy of X-chromosomes. With this, he created woman.
The purpose is as stated. He wanted Adam and Eve to feel not only that they were made in the image of those in the heavens, but also that they were one flesh. By taking flesh from Adam, matter from Adam, this is what Adam understood:

22 And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man. 23 And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed.​

God reasons were thus, as stated, for Adam and Eve and for their children.​

In this we see that the reasons for God doing as he did was to give us a sense of purpose, a sense of knowing why we were as we were, and a sense of what we were vis-á-vis each other, the foundation of society, the marriage of man with woman, or woman with man.

​

 

[SalixIncendium]

You clearly do not understand the article. Zevit is suggesting that the pericope be viewed as etiology.

I reread the article again this morning, and the only thing on which I'm not clear is the your suggestion that I don't understand the article.

To summarize, the article suggests that rather than a rib from the chest cavity being removed, the baculum was removed, and further suggests the existing seam on the penile and scrotal areas of our species (admittedly, I haven't done any research to see if there is any evidence of this seam on animals that have a baculum) are a result of its removal.

I'm not seeing how the baculum was removed nor any generative value that would grow a human of the opposite sex. Am I missing something?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Hmmmmm...does that make you a lousy husband or really bad at choosing a wife?

Can't it be both?

As for the procedure.....
"In the human body there are 24 of these long, slender, curved bones enclosing the chest cavity. Arranged in 12 pairs, they form a cage protecting the heart and lungs. Blood is produced in the marrow of the rib bones.

In the creation of woman, God did not make her separate and distinct from man by forming her from the dust of the ground, as he had done in the creation of Adam. He took a rib from Adam’s side, and from it He built for Adam a perfect counterpart, the woman Eve. (Ge 2:21, 22) Adam, nevertheless, remained a perfect man, now united as ‘bone of bone and flesh of flesh’ with his wife. (Ge 2:23; De 32:4) Moreover, this did not disturb the reproductive cells of Adam so as to affect his children, boys or girls, in their rib structure. The human male and female both have 24 ribs.

It is of interest to note that a rib that has been removed will grow again, replacing itself, as long as the periosteum (the membrane of connective tissue that covers the bone) is allowed to remain. Whether Jehovah God followed this procedure or not the record does not state; however, as man’s Creator, God was certainly aware of this unusual quality of the rib bones."

Rib — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Thank you for pointing out the regenerative qualities of the perichondrium. You are correct. There is evidence that the rib, once removed, will regenerate at least partially if the perichondrium is left in place. While this may explain that Adam retained the original value of ribs, it does not explain any generative value of the rib itself that would grow a woman.

Which leaves us with the question, how did a rib generate a woman? Why have we not been able to duplicate this process?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Your mental processes have taken to the wrong part of the universe.
When we read in Genesis 1, about the creation of the animals, all we know is that they were created according to kind, but nothing about the process was given. Thus kind could for cats mean one parent couple that gave us all the various types of cats we know, and the ones now dead and gone.

When God tells us how he created us in his image and formed man from dust, he does us a kindness. He tells us here that we were made specifically to be in his image and that we in this sense are special, even though later we are told we are just animals. This gives us a kind of feeling of being special on earth, and indeed no other animal can change the face of the world like we can, even destroy it as we are doing. Our intelligence puts us in a special one of a kind type of box.

As to the woman having been created by God taking a rib from Adam, there is the following to consider.

The rib is the only bone in humans that can grow back, if I remember correctly, so that Adam wasn't given a permanent disability.
The fact that God created woman from man's DNA and not the reverse - should also be taken as being the only way things can be since man's DNA has both the Y and X chromosomes, while the woman is all X. Thus God had when he took Adam's DNA a copy of X-chromosomes. With this, he created woman.
The purpose is as stated. He wanted Adam and Eve to feel not only that they were made in the image of those in the heavens, but also that they were one flesh. By taking flesh from Adam, matter from Adam, this is what Adam understood:

22 And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man. 23 And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed.​

God reasons were thus, as stated, for Adam and Eve and for their children.​

In this we see that the reasons for God doing as he did was to give us a sense of purpose, a sense of knowing why we were as we were, and a sense of what we were vis-á-vis each other, the foundation of society, the marriage of man with woman, or woman with man.

​

The scripture, while poetic, again, does not explain the process. Can the process be duplicated? Can we take a rib that has no generative value in and of itself and create a member of the opposite sex an any species, let alone a human?

Did Adam continue on with only a Y chromosome? Can we remove an X chromosome from a man and duplicate it to grow a woman?

 

[Grandliseur]

Did Adam continue on with only a Y chromosome? Can we remove an X chromosome from a man and duplicate it to grow a woman?

Why do you suggest the above. If God has the ability to compute the DNA for a human male without any predecessor, why would he not be able to also take his DNA and take the x-chromosome needed from that material and make a human female without this affecting Adam at all since his rib would grow back.

As to the exact process, we are just starting to see what we can do with the CRISPR genome editing tools. We are probably infants as far as technology goes compared with the Creator. What we are shown is the why of it, not the what and the how.

Even the technology we have developed presently couldn't be imagined back in the 50ties.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Why do you suggest the above. If God has the ability to compute the DNA for a human male without any predecessor, why would he not be able to also take his DNA and take the x-chromosome needed from that material and make a human female without this affecting Adam at all since his rib would grow back.

Your premise of God computing DNA is flawed. If you look back at my OP (and evolution theory), man didn't just pop into existence from dust. It was a process that took place over time.

As to the exact process, we are just starting to see what we can do with the CRISPR genome editing tools. We are probably infants as far as technology goes compared with the Creator. What we are shown is the why of it, not the what and the how.

Only if one ignores evolution theory.

Even the technology we have developed presently couldn't be imagined back in the 50ties.

But somehow a more sophisticated and working version existed 6000 years ago?

 

[Grandliseur]

It was a process that took place over time.

Those are your religious beliefs, I believe in a Creator.

Only if one ignores evolution theory.

The discussion is about the creation of woman not the evolution of woman. I have no interest in the evolution claims.

But somehow a more sophisticated and working version existed 6000 years ago?

If speaking about Creation as in having been created, God's technology is at the pinnacle from before he created this universe.
You don't have to believe in creation, but I do. God began his creative works millions of years ago. However, we haven't been told much about the ages.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Those are your religious beliefs, I believe in a Creator.

Evolution is scientific theory, not religious belief. It's difficult to have religious belief when one has no religion.

The discussion is about the creation of woman not the evolution of woman. I have no interest in the evolution claims evidence.

Fixed the spelling in that last word for you.

But I digress.

Yes, the discussion is about the creation of woman. Still, we have not yet presented a plausible process in which woman was created.

If speaking about Creation as in having been created, God's technology is at the pinnacle from before he created this universe.
You don't have to believe in creation, but I do. God began his creative works millions of years ago. However, we haven't been told much about the ages.

Are you saying you believe in creation, but have no interest in the process in which things were created? If that is the case, I see no reason to continue this discourse.

 

[Grandliseur]

It's difficult to have religious belief when one has no religion.

That is what you guys claim, yet, it has been shown that you need more faith in your chaos god than we do. We have a creator who created all life. You have rock mineral soup that supposedly came to life spontaneously.

I am not interested in evolution. You can believe that we came from moldy cheese for all I care. You asked a question, and I answered.
It would be interesting if we could understand how God did things. But that is ID, a subject you have no interest in either.(if I understand the beliefs of evolutionists correctly.)

End of story, it seems. If you have questions regarding the Biblical side of things, which is what you asked about, let me know.

 

[Grandliseur]

Fixed the spelling in that last word for you.

Evolution is nothing but your claims and ideas, your belief system, a belief system that makes no sense to those who believe in Creationism.
There can be no bridge between our differences, no agreement except that we agree to disagree.

You are welcome to your beliefs, and if you have questions we can answer we'll assist with what we can about ours. Otherwise, there is no reason for any discussion to take place.

 

[SalixIncendium]

You asked a question, and I answered.

Except you didn't. From the OP...

I would appreciate if someone who has read and accepted this as truth would explain the process of removing a rib from a man and growing a woman from it here from a scientific or even rationalist perspective. Did Adam, thereafter, have only 11 pairs of ribs? Or 23 in total, one being unpaired? Did Eve have 13 pairs, or 25 ribs? How does a rib become a woman?

I don't see an answer from you as to how the man was put into a deep sleep, how the rib was removed, or how that rib became a woman.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Evolution is nothing but your claims and ideas, your belief system, a belief system that makes no sense to those who believe in Creationism.

Denial through uninformed judgement is a recipe for ignorance. Perhaps it would behoove believers in creationism to educate themselves on evolution before dismissing it as "claims and ideas." This would certainly aid them in discussion and debate.

There can be no bridge between our differences, no agreement except that we agree to disagree.

You are welcome to your beliefs, and if you have questions we can answer we'll assist with what we can about ours. Otherwise, there is no reason for any discussion to take place.

Agreed, which why I stated earlier that saw no reason to continue this discourse.

Thank you, anyway, for your attempt to offer an explanation.

 

[Grandliseur]

Denial through uninformed judgement is a recipe for ignorance. Perhaps it would behoove believers in creationism to educate themselves on evolution before dismissing it as "claims and ideas." This would certainly aid them in discussion and debate.



Agreed, which why I stated earlier that saw no reason to continue this discourse.

Thank you, anyway, for your attempt to offer an explanation.

You're welcome. If you should have Biblical questions, please ask.

 

[FearGod]

I don't see an answer from you as to how the man was put into a deep sleep, how the rib was removed, or how that rib became a woman.

Do you think that God can't put him under general anesthesia, I don't think in Jesus era they used to make operations
and to let the body going into deep sleep.

General anesthesia is treatment with certain medicines that puts you into a deep sleep so you do not feel pain during surgery. After you receive these medicines, you will not be aware of what is happening around you.
General anesthesia: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

 

[Grandliseur]

Except you didn't. From the OP...

I am covering my bases, not trying to harass you. You said I didn't explain. In cases like this, it seems I have to ask what part of my answer was insufficient?
God got the x-chromosome from Adam's material, from this he grew a female body with the DNA this requires.

If there are things I can explain but you feel are insufficiently explained, let me know so that I can expand on it if possible. If on the other hand, you have gotten all that I can give, then I guess we go our separate ways.

 

[Windwalker]

The dust of the ground is the dust of the stars, and we are composed of stardust. I can interpret this as this dust evolving over time into man and accept that we came about (not instantaneously, of course) from this substance over millions of years.

Of course the authors of the creation myth of Genesis would never have imagined the actual process that happened, from stardust to humans and be encoding a scientific truth hidden inside their story, only to be discovered within the last hundred years. It's infinitely more likely they literally believed God made a special clay figurine out of dirt a His spittle, then magically made it come to life, because He can do such things, being God and all.

I would appreciate if someone who has read and accepted this as truth would explain the process of removing a rib from a man and growing a woman from it here from a scientific or even rationalist perspective.

The rib story is likewise an imagining of magical happenings to explain the presence of women on earth. Since they look like us, and we all know God would have created men first since God is a "He", and men like feeling they are a more special creation than women, being products of a patriarchal culture created by God Himself, then they must have come from men. So the rib seems a good part of the body to take something with, since we all know a world completely full of one-legged men would be problematic, both functionally, and the fact that you don't see that today.

But, we today can read all sorts of metaphorical significance in the story, and that's fine, but it's a good idea to remove the thought that these meanings are there for any reasons beyond our abilities to fit our imaginations to naturally occuring phenomena, such as myth creations. We read back into them our meaning we might take from them today.

Did Adam, thereafter, have only 11 pairs of ribs? Or 23 in total, one being unpaired? Did Eve have 13 pairs, or 25 ribs? How does a rib become a woman?

At some point historically after that, God must have put a rib back into us, considering men and women have the same number of ribs as each other. Now, what meaning might we take from that? That we no longer need women to complete us? Or, that God actually created women with one less pair of ribs and they all have our men ribs in them, to which they owe us their very lives?

Oh the fun we can have playing with mythologies to spin the world the ways we want to see ourselves, particularly as the pinnacle of God's creation, instilled as the heads of patriarchal societies made in the image of God, who is a "He", as scripture makes clear.....