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Featured The craziness of a few trees in a garden and free will.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nowhere Man, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    How does a prerequisite of free will (as per the Abrahamic definition) apply in context with the story of Adam and Eve given that the trees of life and the knowledge of Good and Evil had been forbidden in the first place?

    Can Adam and Eve have free will if they didn't know firsthand any knowledge for what is good or evil, or any knowledge of the tree of life was all about without first knowing what death was?

    What would Adam and Eve's disposition be called prior to the downfall?

    According to the Book of Genesis, it appears that Adam and Eve did not have any free will because the Forbidden trees did not provide knowledge or life as it is described thus eliminating any real sense of free will for Adam and Eve.

    I think the Garden of Eden never was a place for free will given the confines of the garden itself and the initial nature of Adam and Eve as it's described.

    I have a feeling they never would have been allowed outside the garden and restricted to live out their lives for eternity (Depending upon your view), inside the garden itself, never to venture out or obtain any knowledge whatsoever.

    So how can Abrahamic's say free Will initially applied with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

    It just simply can't. I don't see how it's possible. Even with a talking serpent, I don't think they would have understood.

    Additionally,

    Does free will even apply to the Garden of Eden in the story of Adam and Eve?
     
  2. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the option to choose must come with the knowledge of another option.
     
  3. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    try thinking ....spirit, in an animal form
    turn it loose in ideal living conditions with no restraint

    then talk to it now and then to see how much of a mind it really has

    THEN a test.....does it have curiosity even if death is pending?

    so tell it NO......do not eat of this tree
    you will die

    Adam was a chosen son of God.....and likely knew of death prior to moving to the garden
    Eve likely did not understand...but the tree was said to render knowledge

    once they had both partaken of the fruit the conclusion of the garden came
    Man had indeed become that animal ...curious to know
    even as death is pending

    and THAT quality is needed as the hour of the last breath is pending
     
  4. socharlie

    socharlie Active Member

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    technically they were not real humans - no parents. Just prototypes.
     
    #4 socharlie, Jan 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  5. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    They had the choice to follow G-d's commandment or not follow G-d's commandment to not eat from the tree.
    Lack of understanding towards what it is about knowledge that caused G-d to want them to abstain from eating from that tree at that particular moment doesn't directly impact their ability to make a choice. At the most, it would impact whether they were more inclined towards a particular choice depending on whether they agreed with the reasoning or not.
     
  6. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Even today, free will is vastly overrated. It exists as back then, but is mostly an illusion, but it is real nonetheless under severe restrictions.
    You don't choose -
    your parents,
    your children,
    if your parents are rich,
    what country your are born into, and which language you grow up with
    if your child -ren are born free of defect or intelligent
    etc.​
    So many read and misunderstand the story about the garden of Eden. This is partly due to the unfortunate name of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
    Adam lived in the garden for a while before Eve was created. He was an adult, not a child, and had all the faculties of a normal human, maybe even more since he was perfect. He had a conscience as most of us do. It is my opinion based on the facts given - he had to name all the animals kinds that existed, and he was looking for a mate but found none - that he lived solitary in the garden about 40 plus years. This would explain much.

    Because of his prolonged solitude, when given Eve, he was overjoyed . When soon after satan deceived Eve and cause her to sin, Adam found it impossible to loose her because he did not want to be alone again, because the bond he had with her was stronger than death. That is why he chose death with her - rather than just loosing her. Yes, he demonstrated a lack of faith, but he was really just showing how human he was.

    The tree of knowledge was not about imparting knowledge it was about recognition of the knowledge that only strict obedience to God, to God's theocracy can provide us the knowledge of what is forbidden and what is not forbidden. When we see the mess we are in today, it should be obvious to all that only obedience to God may provide us with a Paradise on earth.
     
    #6 Grandliseur, Jan 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Yes free will did apply in the garden of Eden.
    Eve knew that she was not to take of the tree in the midst of the garden.

    Note in Genesis 3:2-3--"And the woman said unto the Serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die"

    Therefore Adam and Eve understood very well, not to take of the tree in the midst of the garden.

    But yet they did, So Adam and Eve made their free will choice who they would obey.

    Lets say, that you tell a child not to put their hand in the fire, if they do, They will get burned.
    But yet the child did any ways
    So who's at fault, the child after you
    forwarned them or You ?

    But you for warned them, what would happen if they put their hand in the fire.

    But the child made their choice, by their free will, whether to listen to you or go against what told them plainly.
    So the child got burned.

    So who's at fault the child or You?
     
  8. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    get over it it is only a story.
     
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  9. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    People need to grow up. Does anyone actually think God did not know exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about?

    So either God wanted us to sin or God is okay with it. I think God was bored and wanted to spice up the Universe with some action. Human behavior is the ultimate reality TV show.
     
  10. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    It's not obvious at all. It's not God instituting the theocracy. It is is men. And men pretending to speak for God is possible man's greatest possible sin because it always results in evil. And evil coming out of what is supposed to be divine and sacred is the very worst kind of evil.

    We do not need a theocracy. What we need is checks and balances against other men pretending to speak for God. What we need is everyone to trust their own inner Jesus authority and stop letting someone outside of themselves tell them what to think. The problem with people in authority over others is power corrupts the soul. It's been proven time and time again.

    Here is the problem with church leaders. I found this very insightful piece of human psychology called the Metamorphic effect of power. Most studies of psychology concentrate on the worker, consumer, citizen, television viewer, etc. This study was done on people in positions of power. And how the Metamorphic effect of power changes people in positions of leadership. The study kind of proves the old maxim from Lord Acton: "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." But it is more than just corruption. The Metamorphic effect causes contempt for the person the leader has authority over. Here's how it works. Every time the leader believes, whether true or not, they have successfully influenced someone else, something changes in the mind of the leader. They begin a gradual process of losing respect for the people they have leadership over. They begin to see the people not as equals, but as lesser human beings. The process continues until the subjects are seen as not being human at all but sub-humans. The leader then sees subordinates not as people but as worthless ants that can step on or exploited without any moral consequence. The only way to avoid the Metamorphic effect of power is to be aware of it. And even then it just may be a flaw in human nature when it comes to people in positions of authority.

    Authority if the root of all evil.
     
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  11. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    While your last paragraph contains a lot of truth, a theocracy is not men ruling but God. This we do need badly, and that is what is promised. Not men wearing garb with which they claim to stand in for God, but God's direct rule, not church leaders telling us what they now want us to do. I am quite fed up by that.

    It was the choice of A. to have human rule, to determine for himself that he knew what was good for him, i.e. eat the fruit. This was disregarding a direct edict from above violating God's theocracy.
     
  12. Srivijaya

    Srivijaya Active Member

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    Genesis was written so that instructed people would understand it and the rest would just read a creation myth which had in, one guise or another, done the rounds for centuries before. Elements of which are found in the much earlier Epic of Gilgamesh.

    This was a feature of spiritual transmittion of the middle east. Jesus taught in parables, the idea being that those ready to 'get' what he meant would do so and the rest would just hear an interesting anecdote or whatever.

    Nowadays we have creationists believing Genesis is literally true and opponents easily disproving it but both are unfortunately missing the actual material.
     
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  13. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    That is true, myths and parables are instructional...
    they carry messages that can be interpreted and applied.
     
  14. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if free will is real. I don't really believe it myself. If it is real then it's beyond my comprehension to understand how it is real.

    I do believe that from our limited human perspective it might as well be real because we still make choices and our choices have effects. I think from God's perspective past, present, future are all one. If time is a river then to us it seems to flow but for God it's frozen and He sees the whole thing from beginning to end. Or you could compare it to a film strip. The film is finished and is one strip but when you play scene after scene in order it seems to move and has "time".

    I believe God made everything sure so that it happens just as it is supposed to happen. The tree of knowledge was put there to provide choice but He knew we humans would fail. This world is full of pain for a reason because this produces "fruit". Without evil existing good fruit could not be produced. So the plan of God is simple in this way it is that evil would exist so that eternal good fruit could be "harvested". The fruit is eternal, the evil, the pain are not.
     
  15. idav

    idav Being
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    I believe that the Eden creation myth is an explanation of how free will came about and there being a difference between man and other animals. Humans can’t have free will or even choice without knowing better and that’s a significant difference. I don’t think that humans are completely unique in that regard but there are only a few mammals that have the capacity to “know better”. I think that is what the Genesis creation myth was trying to get at. I believe your correct, they could not have understood and the serpent didn’t exactly lie either so they couldn’t have known any better. Not to mention that Eve was never given the warning not to eat from the tree of knowledge, only Adam was told before Eve was even created. Unless Eve was told by God or Adam and the story just fails to mention it, hard to say.
     
  16. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    A lot of what had to do with me creating this thread, is how Christians address and had addressed free will in terms of how and why it applies to Christianity in the context that it's being put forth.

    The story of Adam and Eve in the Book of Genesis seems to be contrary to what the popular definitions are of free will as put forth by Christians primarily with New Testament theology. I do think Free Will is an invented religious term, but does have value as a philosophy in regards to what free will means exactly.

    Genesis proved to be a great example because the story itself runs counterproductive as to how free will has been described.
     
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  17. idav

    idav Being
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    IMO free will has everything to do with having the knowledge and foresight to choose a path, and humans have such knowledge which is a gift from God. How else could free will work, even according to Christians?
     
  18. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Does the Bible really tell they didn’t know good and evil? God didn’t say they will know anything because of the tree, it was the serpent that said so and deceived people. God only told the name of the tree and that with death they shall die, if they eat. Adam and Eve rejected God and ate. They could have as well asked more from God about the serpent and its claims and then make reasonable decision.

    Free will is the ability to want freely things that person himself wants. Adam and Eve both had that ability and they chose the fruit, because they wanted it.
     
  19. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Darn. I though this thread was about gardening.
     
  20. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    • Adam and Eve had the presence of God. So they knew God first hand, and that means, that God is obviously trustworthy, and innocent, and honest, and they knew this.
    They knew God was serious, and worthy of reverence, and still they disobeyed God . They instead wanted the knowledge of good and evil.

    So they had foreknowledge with the presence of God.

    Their hearts were not with God so they disobeyed a very serious command.


    Trusting God is a qualification of entering into life. If you can't trust and love obvious trustworthiness, and love, then you have made a choice to sin. God is life itself, and they did not want life. They wanted their own ways and not the ways of life everlasting.

    They knew God can't lie, because lying is contrary to God. They did not care and ate the Apple that opened their eyes to good and evil, when they could have chosen freely life itself.

    It was the ultimate test of heart. Destiny and fate laid right before their eyes.
     
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