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THE COUNCIL OF NICEA 325A.D.,and CONSTANTINE

Scott1

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
You didn't think that what is clear for you is not clear for others?
Sometimes, but not in your case.... just ask Binyamin.:D
This is how we get benefit from each other. To open our heart before our mind.:)
Amen...that is why I never attack Islam with poorly researched garbage... and I don't plan on starting anytime soon.

All with Peter, to Jesus, through Mary,
Scott
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Scott1 said:
Sometimes, but not in your case.... just ask Binyamin.:D
Amen...that is why I never attack Islam with poorly researched garbage... and I don't plan on starting anytime soon.

All with Peter, to Jesus, through Mary,
Scott
I never will think that you may attack Islam but my first assumption will be that you want to clearify things you have doubt about only and you can discuss about Islam anytime and no body will tell you why are you attacking Islam.:)
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
Oh vey.... ok, here is your reading list:

Conciliorum Oecumenicorum Decreta. Guiseppe Alberigo et al, Basel Herder 1962

Encyclopedia of Theology. Karl Rahner Seabury Press 1975

A New Eusebuis James Stevenson SPCK 1957

From the Apostolic Community to Constantine (Vol. 1 of History of the Church) Karl Baus Crossroad 1982

The Early Church and the World Cecil Cadoux T&T Clark 1955

History of Primitive Christianity Hans Conzelmann Abingdon Press 1973

The Rise of Christianity Rodney Stark Princeton University Press 1996

The New Testament and Early Christianity Joseph Tyson Macmillan 1984

All you have to pick is ONE... just ONE... and there are THOUSANDS more that I do not own.

What I have a problem with is believeing that with the THOUSANDS of books that reflect a positive view of early Christianity, that a Muslim- BY ACCIDENT, can only find references that seem to attack the crediblity of the Church. I don't believe it was an accident..... so please, prove me wrong. After you do your research, I will wait for you to post someting POSITIVE and SUPPORTIVE of the early Christian Church.... I will be holding my breath.:D
My dear respected brother it would be much easier if you could list the source pages from these references for if you would like me to respond soon to your post. I am going to insha Allah get all these books and read them and I thank you for the references any information is good information to me but if you could just list some references from these books for me since you have already read them. It would make it easier on me to check instead of toiling away at what I am sure is 1000's of pages of information. I mean if you don't mind. And believe me brother I am not trying to attack the credibility of the Church it is what it is. I have read many book on the Christian church about some of the martyers and different well respected, knowledgable, and just popes. I have the greatest respect for my Christian bretheren most of the people I deal with on a day to day basis are Christian. There moral character and faith is something many other faiths lack. That is why Allah says the closest to us in our religion is our Christian brothers. I am only siting what some of YOUR CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS SAY. The people mentioned in my post are CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS, so please do not think that I am attacking your religion I am just curious as to why some of your christian bretheren would say these things about themselves it is very curious to me as a muslim that is why I am presenting their information. Again thank you for your references and if you could to decrease the time in research just write it out for me from your sources list the pages if you don't mind. There is no need for us to fight or argue if we both have the intention to fight then that is just what we will do my intention is to learn from my Christian bretheren not to fight so I am just presenting the information wanting some feedback from you brothers and sisters. Peace Look forward to hearing from you.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Mujahid Mohammed said:
My dear respected brother it would be much easier if you could list the source pages from these references for if you would like me to respond soon to your post.
.... nah, this is fine. Good luck with your studies.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
.... nah, this is fine. Good luck with your studies.
Well I am sorry to say that your intention is only to fight and argue and not learn. For whatever reason you do not want to make things easy but difficult. I am curious is the reason you choose not to post them is because you actually have not read these books or are scared to post the direct sources. Because if you have the information readily available you should post them instead of being so hard. Maybe that is just how you are you do not want to educate. If we are having a debate as you say list your immediate sources quotes, page references to support your claim. I do not think you are scared but this is how it seems to me and to others as well. And I could be wrong and I am man enough to admit it but if I am wrong then prove me wrong. List them all so everyone in the forum can have a chance to learn from you. Not everyone on this post may be able to get these books. And I am sure many of your Christian brothers who agree with you would love to your sources so they can use them in future dialogues and likewise those individuals who state Constantine is and died a PAGAN. Would probabley also like to hear from you. If you have already done the reading then at least give us that small bit of charity. I would do the same for you. Allah says the closest to us in morals are our Christian bretheren. Brother my intention is to learn and tell people what I know if your intention is to fight and argue then it makes sense why you would not list the direct quotes because people who do not care about learning and teaching are not out trying to make people understand your viewpoint. They just want to argue. I hope you are not one of these individuals.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Mujahid Mohammed said:
Well I am sorry to say that your intention is only to fight and argue and not learn.
Peace be with you.
And I am sure many of your Christian brothers who agree with you would love to your sources so they can use them in future dialogues and likewise those individuals who state Constantine is and died a PAGAN.
Any time you'd like to start a new thread about this, I'd be happy to provide some help.

In Christ,
Scott
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Mujahid Mohammed said:
Not everyone on this post may be able to get these books. And I am sure many of your Christian brothers who agree with you would love to your sources so they can use them in future dialogues and likewise those individuals who state Constantine is and died a PAGAN. because people who do not care about learning and teaching are not out trying to make people understand your viewpoint.
My dear brother, since you are a keen learner, I shall try to find more online materials for you. This provides the time line during Constantine period, and you can search for details using Google, for example, just type "Pope Marcellus 1" to find out what happen
303-311 Last persecution of Christians in Rome304 Letters of Victor, bishop of Pettau306-337 Emperor Constantine the Great, convert to Christianity306-312 Maxentius emperor of Western Roman Empire306-308 Pope Marcellus I, 30th Pope, tried removing prior Pope Marcellinus from official records for apostasy, exiled from Rome by Maxentius for disturbing the peace310 Pope Eusebius, 31st Pope, deported to Sicily with anti-Pope Heraclius by Maxentius311-314 Pope Miltiades, 32nd Pope, Constantine gives Fausta's palace as papal residence312 Lucian, founded Exegetical School of Antioch, martyred312 Constantine defeats Maxentius at Milvian Bridge, reunites Roman Empire313 Edict of Milan, Constantine establishes toleration of Christianity313 Miltiades excommunicates Donatus for requiring rebaptism of apostates314-335 Pope Silvester I, 33rd Pope314 Council of Arles, called by Constantine against Donatist (Donatus) schism317 Letters of Lactantius, early Christian church father321 Constantine decrees Sunday as offical Roman-Christian day of rest325 Council of Nicaea, called by Constantine against Arianism (336), called 1st great Christian council by Jerome, 1st ecumenical, 318 bishops attend, Nicaean Creed325? Fayyumic Coptic cop(mf) translation fragment of John 6:11-15:11330 Old Saint Peter's Basilica dedicated by Constantine, located over the traditional burial site of Saint Peter the Apostle in Rome on Vatican Hill 331 Seat of Roman Empire moved to Constantinople (formally Byzantium)336-337 Pope Mark, 34th Pope336 Arius, Greek theologian - Arianism (Jesus was a created being)337-350 Roman empire splits again, Constans emperor of West until 350337-361 Roman empire splits again, Constantius emperor of East until 361337-352 Pope Julius I, 35th Pope


More details from this web page:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/fathers.htm
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Dear brother MM,

Books are expansive to purchase, and religious books may not be stock in public library, though you will find many books in the churches. However, if you have difficulty visiting a church to borrow those books, you can try reading on line, such as:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/onlinebooks.html

I am sure there are some books that have similar information as given in the list of books provided by Scotty.
 

wmam

Active Member
Mujahid Mohammed,

Thanks for all the truth and information. I to believe that constantine was a pagan sun worshiper all the way to the end and that had a lot of influence on what happened in what they call christianity. Which by the way was a name put on those by non-believers. I believe Nazarites would have been more proper as it seems that is the name that the Disciples as well as Yahshua, the Annointed, were known as.

Again thanks........... :) Frubals to you, ;)
 

ProveYourFaith

ProveYourFaith
How do you explain Trinitarian theology pre-Nicea?
Justin Martyr
"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).
How are we to know Justin Martyr actually wrote this? I don't see any Trinity in this "he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third." The spirit of prophecy is the believer probably said because prophecy is cited as the greatest gift. One who has the ability of prophecy is the Spirit of Prophecy. It is true Christ was given all power and to set at the right hand of Almighty God being made his second. How would this make him Almighty God himself?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
How are we to know Justin Martyr actually wrote this? I don't see any Trinity in this "he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third." The spirit of prophecy is the believer probably said because prophecy is cited as the greatest gift. One who has the ability of prophecy is the Spirit of Prophecy. It is true Christ was given all power and to set at the right hand of Almighty God being made his second. How would this make him Almighty God himself?
This thread is 13 years old the member you quoted hasn't been here since 2012.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
How are we to know Justin Martyr actually wrote this? I don't see any Trinity in this "he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third." The spirit of prophecy is the believer probably said because prophecy is cited as the greatest gift. One who has the ability of prophecy is the Spirit of Prophecy. It is true Christ was given all power and to set at the right hand of Almighty God being made his second. How would this make him Almighty God himself?
The poster you are responding to wrote his bit over 13 years ago. I wouldn't expect a reply any time soon as Scott1 hasn't been around in ages.
 

ProveYourFaith

ProveYourFaith
The formula given in Nicea was a response to Arianism. Trinitas was not something novel to the early fathers. It is a common misconception that when a Council is held that something absolutely new is coming to be. Not the case.

To add:

Tertullian

"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics" (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

In Christ
~Victor
There is no shortage of those who did not believe this. those whom he is trying to refute. The same would also claim othadoxy they simply were killed and thier writings destroyed by those peace loveing Godman believers. Human Jesus believers existed throughout Christianity. They unlike those of the Godman belief never persacuted or killed anyone. I do not think God or Christ sanctioned the murder of non believers. Those who did this because they feared being exposed as frauds are certainly not of God.
The poster you are responding to wrote his bit over 13 years ago. I wouldn't expect a reply any time soon as Scott1 hasn't been around in ages.
Im new here don't know anyone yet.
 

ProveYourFaith

ProveYourFaith
The poster you are responding to wrote his bit over 13 years ago. I wouldn't expect a reply any time soon as Scott1 hasn't been around in ages.
Im new dont know anyone. I tried to answer the quote he posted next time ill post a new comment with quote in it.
Click on their avatar or username and their profile will appear, and (unless they have changed the settings) you can see when they last visited.
Thanks
 
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