1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Cost of Being a Woman

Discussion in 'Feminist Only' started by Meow Mix, Aug 4, 2021.

  1. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Chatte Féministe

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11,363
    Ratings:
    +6,170
    Religion:
    Nontheist
    Let's ignore for now the debate on the gender wage gap and the myriad of explanations and half-explanations for it (but note that as of 2020 per Pew, women made 84% what men did: Gender pay gap in U.S. held steady in 2020).

    Let's also ignore some aspects of the Pink Tax, the phenomenon whereby unnecessarily gendered products (like pink razors) cost more for women than the male equivalents. After all, we can just buy the 10 pack of the blue razors rather than the similarly priced 5 pack of the pink razors.

    What gets interesting is when the products have functional differences, yet the Pink Tax still applies: razors specifically meant for legs (which women are disproportionately affected by), t-shirts with particular fits and cuts that aren't more expensive to produce, but which are sold more expensively than the male equivalents.

    For instance, in 2015, a study in New York (https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dca/downloads/pdf/partners/Study-of-Gender-Pricing-in-NYC.pdf) found that on average, women's products cost 7% more than similar men's products:
    • 7% more for toys and accesories
    • 4% more for children's clothing
    • 8% more for adult clothing
    • 13% (!!!) more for personal care products
    • 8% more for senior/home health care products
    35 product categories were analyzed in total, and products meant for female consumers were priced higher than those for male consumers in 30 of those categories.

    How much does this cost women over a lifetime? In 1994, California studied the issue of gender-based pricing and estimated that women effectively paid a "gender tax" annually of about $1,351 (keep in mind that's 1994 dollars). (CA State Senate 1995, Gender Tax Repeal Act of 1995, AB 1100. Aug 31, 1995)

    Now, how about the fact that society pressures women to use more personal care products: we are expected to wear makeup to "look nice" at work, we are largely expected to shave more of our bodies. We wear bras, which for male feminists here, I assure you are expensive. We don't always have functioning pockets, so we wind up carrying purses (which cost more than mens' pocket wallets). We use entire categories of care products men don't have to worry about, like "feminine hygiene" products.

    It is genuinely more expensive to be a woman.

    Now, what can be done about this? I think a good start is efforts to alleviate the burden of nearly-inescapable costs like feminine hygiene products like Scotland has done (Scotland Becomes 1st Country To Make Period Products Free).

    I think it would be fairly easy to legislate against blatant Pink Taxes (whereby a nearly identical product is artificially gendered, then "shrinked and pinked," i.e., take the same product, reduce the number of product you get for the same price, and market this one to women).

    I don't know what can be done about other "gender taxes." For instance when it comes to clothing, how exactly can it be determined if a women's shirt cost more to produce or has more value than a men's shirt of similar make (but different cut)?

    Anyone have thoughts?
     
    #1 Meow Mix, Aug 4, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  2. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Chatte Féministe

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11,363
    Ratings:
    +6,170
    Religion:
    Nontheist
    #2 Meow Mix, Aug 4, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  3. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    78,264
    Ratings:
    +32,485
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    It's still slapping me in the face now and then to go to the store and find, yes, women's stuff generally costs more. It's so ridiculous I'll keep my feather razors. They're way cheaper, use soap instead gel and cream stuff, and are tons cheaper. They're also strongly gendered towards men.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  4. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Chatte Féministe

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11,363
    Ratings:
    +6,170
    Religion:
    Nontheist
    I have never thought about this but it would be interesting to hear what women that lived part of their life presenting male thought, if they noticed, of Pink Tax-like effects.

    Equally interesting to see what men that spent part of their life presenting female might have thought (or noticed) about not paying Pink Taxes anymore.
     
  5. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    78,264
    Ratings:
    +32,485
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    It's nuts. Clothes (including shoes), hygiene stuff, bras, and just today I looked at a salon for the first time, including seeing the prices. It is nuts, and frustrating to see the extra costs.
    Really, I don't see why they shouldn't even the prices. Some stuff like makeup I don't mind (I wore black nail polish and eyeliner before presenting as female; I'm also biased into getting to have what's long been denied), but razors? There's no real justification for it. And the pockets for women's jeans and pants are stupid. I don't have to have Jyncos and fit everything I need for the day and lunch in my pockets, but more than ID and debit card and keys would be great. Because the phone in my pack pocket? Can't do it. I've sat on mine too much (I never had my wallet there, I always thought that was dumb, I just forget it's there).
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  6. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Chatte Féministe

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11,363
    Ratings:
    +6,170
    Religion:
    Nontheist
    I've found some good pockets pants, but I don't know how this isn't more widespread. I guess you can vaguely, barely see the outline of the pockets fabric because the jeans are pretty tight, and maybe this is why they do this. I don't know. Still stupid.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  7. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    78,264
    Ratings:
    +32,485
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    They need to make cargo pants for women. Women probably would also get more use out of them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    21,206
    Ratings:
    +14,101
    Religion:
    atheist
    I'm treading on the line of losing my rights to post in this forum here, I fear, but just for the sake of discussion I'm going to raise this anyway.

    I often do project estimation. There is no material cost to the work we do, it's all service based, and skill based.
    So, I can sell an employee at $1000 a day, or $2000 a day, in simple terms.

    The cost of that employee doesn't change. It's just whatever salary we pay them.
    So how do I determine cost?

    The employees salary sets a baseline, below which we lose money. In the clothes analogy, that's the cost of material and labour.
    From there, I just decide how badly I want the work (eg. strategic value, or people sitting on the bench not charging out), how scarce the skills we are providing are (scarcity) and how much the client can afford/is willing to pay.

    That last little nugget is the important one in this context. Companies will charge what people are willing to pay, and will happily charge women more for a pink razor than a blue based on their willingness to pay more.
    Is this fair? Well...no. Is it fair that I charge client A more than B? Well...no. Fair doesn't really come into the equation, apart from in the loosest possible sense (ie. we try to treat clients well because our competitors sometimes don't. We get to feel good, AND get return business)

    So...what to do.
    I think the possibility of putting forth legislation on the most blatant of pink taxes is a good idea, and could be easily enough done with consumer affairs. And removing tax (at the very least) from all feminine hygiene products is so obvious it's amazing it's not universal already. Scotland seems to have gone the extra mile (which is great).


    TLDR;
    Controlling blatant price differences for the same products is a great idea.
    Removing at least taxes from a raft of female products should be done universally.
    Controlling price on distinct fashion items based on production prices? I just don't see that as practical.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Chatte Féministe

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11,363
    Ratings:
    +6,170
    Religion:
    Nontheist
    I don't know why you thought this reasonable post would revoke your feminist card :p

    I perhaps wasn't clear from the way I worded my last sentence that I was trying to say "I don't know what can be done about this," not "I don't know how to match prices of fashion items to production costs." I can see how it would have read that way, so I'll be more clear: I was trying to say I don't know what can be done. The matching prices to production costs thing was supposed to be an example of an idea that I don't know (don't think) would work.
     
  10. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    21,206
    Ratings:
    +14,101
    Religion:
    atheist
    Phew. I didn't want my feminist card revoked on account of how much more expensive it was than a maninist one. Malest one. Err...Blokey one?
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  11. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    78,264
    Ratings:
    +32,485
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Is it a willingness or just the pressures that keep men in men's sections and women in women's section? About the only times you see one in the other are women buying men's clothes (presumable for a husband, child, or whoever), and when a guy is with his girlfriend in the makeup section. You just don't see the two in or looking at each other's store sections that much. To the point I'd be willing to bet a lot of women aren't aware of the price discrepancies.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  12. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Chatte Féministe

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11,363
    Ratings:
    +6,170
    Religion:
    Nontheist
    This might be a thing. I don't think I've ever perused a men's section in a clothing store at all (when separated as such). I'm kind of interested in comparing jeans prices now (and theirs have POCKETS)
     
  13. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    78,264
    Ratings:
    +32,485
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    From what I've seen their mostly made for bean poles or short and obese. I've always had such a hard time finding mens jeans that fit and had to catalogue order before the internet.
    Women's jeans though it is no problem or difficulty or struggle or challenge to find my size.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  14. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Chatte Féministe

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11,363
    Ratings:
    +6,170
    Religion:
    Nontheist
    I thought mens jeans would have a more consistent sizing or something, like with the waist and length being standard sizing instead of just a size number. Or do they use size numbers? I thought they were in the format of # x # in inches
     
  15. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    78,264
    Ratings:
    +32,485
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    # x #. It's just hard for me to find my size because very widely and often all I can find is small waist and very long legs, or very big waist and small legs.
    I've been told I have wide hips for someone born male, but it seems women's covers everything but itty bitty and obese.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Chatte Féministe

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11,363
    Ratings:
    +6,170
    Religion:
    Nontheist
    I hate size numbers. They mean literally nothing between different brands
     
  17. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    78,264
    Ratings:
    +32,485
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    I noticed that years ago with shoes. Quickly noticed it with bras. Amd with bras, despite it being such a normal thing that I'm not exception, there are no "mismatched" cup sizes. Just like you can't buy two different shoe sizes even though people do normally have different sized feet.
    Oh, and I've definitely noticed a degree of culture behind it. Indiana I could not find women's shoes in any store (and I did inventory at a lot of stores so I've got to look a lot). Here in California I noticed women's sandals in my size at an Old Navy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Chatte Féministe

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11,363
    Ratings:
    +6,170
    Religion:
    Nontheist
    Bras are the stuuuupidest, I agree. I am small enough I can usually nix them and I wear sports bras a lot. But they’re also stupid, I prefer the ones with sewn in pads but they don’t do that a lot. If they’re not sewn in I just nix the pads too.

    I’ve never been to CA. I thrift for a lot of cute stuff, but I’m fortunate to be near a particularly good college town for these purposes. ^.^
     
  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    78,264
    Ratings:
    +32,485
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    They so are. Sports bras aren't too bad, but I'm pretty sure underwire is based on a Medieval torture device.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
Loading...