The corona and end time plagues

[Eyes to See]

If this had to happen, it is gods fault. He designed the system, he set things up, it is his doing.

That is faulty reasoning. He didn't force the first human couple to sin. He didn't cause or make Satan sin either. They did so of their own volition. You could argue that God could have made us so we could not disobey him but then we would just be robots forced to do his bidding. Rather he created the angels and humankind with freewill. The ability to chose right from wrong. And then he gave us the respect of not interfering with the decisions we chose to make.

It says in one scripture:

"The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness who is never unjust;
Righteous and upright is he.
They are the ones who have acted corruptly.
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
They are a crooked and twisted generation!"
-Deuteronomy 32:4, 5.

God is perfect and faithful in all his ways, never unjust, upright and righteous. They acted corruptly on their own, the defect of those who rebel against his good and upright rule is their own.

 

[Trailblazer]

If this had to happen, it is gods fault. He designed the system, he set things up, it is his doing.

God set it up so humans would have free will, and that is why it happened.
That is why all evil exists.

Do you want to relinquish your free will and be God's puppet?

 

[Eyes to See]

God set it up so humans would have free will, and that is why it happened.
That is why all evil exists.

Do you want to relinquish your free will and be God's puppet?

Haha. We both just posted the same thing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God is perfect and faithful in all his ways, never unjust, upright and righteous. They acted corruptly on their own, the defect of those who rebel against his good and upright rule is their own.

Anyone who has a system that includes someone like Hitler and they do nothing about it, that is not just and righteous, it is wicked and unholy.

God set it up so humans would have free will, and that is why it happened.
That is why all evil exists.

Do you want to relinquish your free will and be God's puppet?

Free will hasnt been shown to exist. At best, if we have it at all (and its not all an illusion), we have a very heavily constrained will that just really isn't free.
My own best example is I didnt will myself into having hypomanic episodes, I didnt will the medications that caused it to be the onset, and I don't will the high levels of energy the inevitable lead to a crash and sleeping for longer than normal. I didnt will myself to have major depression, anxieties that are sometimes debilitating, to have or behave like I have Asperger's, amd I didnt will myself to be trans.

 

[Eyes to See]

Free will hasnt been shown to exist. At best, if we have it at all (and its not all an illusion), we have a very heavily constrained will that just really isn't free.

So according to your statement you were forced to write that, and I am being forced to reply. Hmm-hmm. Okie dokie.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So according to your statement you were forced to write that, and I am being forced to reply. Hmm-hmm. Okie dokie.

If you want to make silly assumptions and absurd reductionist claims. And, certainly, it is so your brain made the decision before you were consciously aware of it, so you may be right and we simply had no other choice.

 

[Eyes to See]

If you want to make silly assumptions and absurd reductionist claims. And, certainly, it is so your brain made the decision before you were consciously aware of it, so you may be right and we simply had no other choice.

No. Had something else in mind. I just wanted to see your reaction. You are an intelligent person, and have these thoughts you share which are valid and I appreciate them. It does mean you give thought to why things are the way they are.

What I am trying to help you understand is why they are the way they are and the hope we have. The part about your sickness really touched me. And perhaps it may be affecting the way you interpret what you perceive and the answers I am sharing with you from the Bible. God knows all of that. He also knows that is isn't your fault, or my fault that we were born into defective sinful bodies. That is why he provided the ransom sacrifice to redeem our sin, and promises to fix things.

He is not the aloof and uncaring God you think he is. Think it through. There is no reason for him to create other than love. And we have proof that is why he created us in the things we enjoy in life, the ability to see color, to taste food, enjoy good companionship, the beauty of nature. Our senses of justice and love are reflections of his own.

Jehovah sees you and cares for you. That is why he left his word to teach us really what is going on. And that is why he has given his spirit to people to lead them to others who don't understand to give them an explanation and a hope. You see God loved you before you ever even knew him:

"By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him. 10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins."-1 John 4:9-10.

 

[Trailblazer]

Free will hasnt been shown to exist. At best, if we have it at all (and its not all an illusion), we have a very heavily constrained will that just really isn't free.
My own best example is I didnt will myself into having hypomanic episodes, I didnt will the medications that caused it to be the onset, and I don't will the high levels of energy the inevitable lead to a crash and sleeping for longer than normal. I didnt will myself to have major depression, anxieties that are sometimes debilitating, to have or behave like I have Asperger's, amd I didnt will myself to be trans.

That's true. There are many things in life that we have no control over.

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

Free will only applies to making moral choices or life decisions like marriage and career choices, or even simpler things like you want to go to the grocery store or a movie or post on a forum.

Free will does not apply to the things we are compelled to do or things we have no control over, such as eating, sleeping, diseases, injuries, misfortunes, and death. We are not responsible for the things we are compelled to do or the things which we have no control over, we are only responsible for the moral choices we make, such as being nice to someone or mean, rude or courteous. Am I going to give a struggling tenant the boot, or wait for him to pay the rent? I have a choice.

You would not be on this forum posting if you did not make a choice to do so. God did not make you do it so it had to be your choice since there is nobody else here. Only if someone is incarcerated do they lose the freedom of choice. That is why going to prison is the worst punishment, other than getting the death sentence, which also takes away your choice to live.

Question.—Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained?

Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.

Some Answered Questions, p. 248

The whole chapter on free will can be read on this link: 70: FREE WILL

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's true. There are many things in life that we have no control over.

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

Free will only applies to making moral choices or life decisions like marriage and career choices, or even simpler things like you want to go to the grocery store or a movie or post on a forum.

Free will does not apply to the things we are compelled to do or things we have no control over, such as eating, sleeping, diseases, injuries, misfortunes, and death. We are not responsible for the things we are compelled to do or the things which we have no control over, we are only responsible for the moral choices we make, such as being nice to someone or mean, rude or courteous. Am I going to give a struggling tenant the boot, or wait for him to pay the rent? I have a choice.

You would not be on this forum posting if you did not make a choice to do so. God did not make you do it so it had to be your choice since there is nobody else here. Only if someone is incarcerated do they lose the freedom of choice. That is why going to prison is the worst punishment, other than getting the death sentence, which also takes away your choice to live.

Question.—Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained?

Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.

Some Answered Questions, p. 248

The whole chapter on free will can be read on this link: 70: FREE WILL

Then what of studies that show our mind is made up on a decision before we are consciously aware of them? What of these "moral decisions" that really aren't decisions but primed consequences? (it can even be potentially criminal behavior if the abused helps defend an abuser's crimes).
And the links do not give anything beyond claims of religious beliefs. Hardly even a discussion of free will (truly, the subject is far too complicated to discuss in a few paragraphs to give the subject any proper amount of attention to adequately discuss it).

 

[Trailblazer]

And the links do not give anything beyond claims of religious beliefs. Hardly even a discussion of free will (truly, the subject is far too complicated to discuss in a few paragraphs to give the subject any proper amount of attention to adequately discuss it).

That's true. Free will is a huge discussion topic. Also, it is not something that can be proven to exist, all we can have are reasoned arguments.

Then what of studies that show our mind is made up on a decision before we are consciously aware of them? What of these "moral decisions" that really aren't decisions but primed consequences? (it can even be potentially criminal behavior if the abused helps defend an abuser's crimes).

Regarding criminals, nobody could ever be held accountable if free will was not assumed to exist.
Where would that lead?

Free WIll, Determinism, and the Criminal Justice System

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No. Had something else in mind. I just wanted to see your reaction. You are an intelligent person, and have these thoughts you share which are valid and I appreciate them. It does mean you give thought to why things are the way they are.

What I am trying to help you understand is why they are the way they are and the hope we have. The part about your sickness really touched me. And perhaps it may be affecting the way you interpret what you perceive and the answers I am sharing with you from the Bible. God knows all of that. He also knows that is isn't your fault, or my fault that we were born into defective sinful bodies. That is why he provided the ransom sacrifice to redeem our sin, and promises to fix things.

He is not the aloof and uncaring God you think he is. Think it through. There is no reason for him to create other than love. And we have proof that is why he created us in the things we enjoy in life, the ability to see color, to taste food, enjoy good companionship, the beauty of nature. Our senses of justice and love are reflections of his own.

Jehovah sees you and cares for you. That is why he left his word to teach us really what is going on. And that is why he has given his spirit to people to lead them to others who don't understand to give them an explanation and a hope. You see God loved you before you ever even knew him:

"By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him. 10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins."-1 John 4:9-10.

I used to be Christian. I left it about 20 years ago. A major reason was when I need god the most, when I turned to his word instead of the love and guidance I was looking for I found an abundance of violence, bloodshed, and cruelly unfair repression.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Regarding criminals, nobody could ever be held accountable if free will was not assumed to exist.
Where would that lead?

Probably more humane and rehabilitative treatment rather than treating people like filthy scum who chose to be criminals.

 

[Trailblazer]

Probably more humane and rehabilitative treatment rather than treating people like filthy scum who chose to be criminals.

I am a firm believer in free will so I believe that in most cases they chose to be criminals...
People who are mentally ill, mentally challenged, or brain damaged are the exception.
Because their free will is compromised they are not fully responsible for their crimes, and courts take that into consideration.

What the punishment should be is another matter.

 

[nPeace]

Jesus Christ.

I agree. It is clear.
So since Jesus referred to himself as the son of man, why do you think we can refer to the son of man - whom Jesus spoke of as coming - as someone else? What scriptural basis do you have for doing so?

 

[nPeace]

If the League of Nations had to fall to return as the UN, this would necessitate the presence of Hitler and the Nazis, and they were a very major reason WWII broke out. Without this alleged prophecy could not be fulfilled. This means god intended for the Nazis to do what they did. That they are a part of his plan. And if that is the case, his plan is sadistic.

Sorry, but that does not follow.
That's like saying God caused Hitler's birth.
Anyone could have been German's ruler.
I don't see how that is reasonable.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sorry, but that does not follow.
That's like saying God caused Hitler's birth.
Anyone could have been German's ruler.
I don't see how that is reasonable.

If it was all in his plan he needed Hitler, Himmler, Mengele, Goebbels, and other key Nazis were they were to cause the ruckus that lead to WWII. It could have been anyone, but it had to be someone (sort of like Judas). And a god who's intentions to fulfill prophecy would make the actions of the Nazi's necessary to lead to the failure of the League of Nations to the UN could come about is sick, cruel, and barbaric.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am a firm believer in free will so I believe that in most cases they chose to be criminals...

And yet I see many who had no real other choice. Steal or starve. Burglarize or go homeless. There is a reason poverty and crime walk hand-in-hand. Where you find one, the other usually isn't too far behind, and drug abuse is also typically present. Some are just desperate to fit in somewhere in a world that has left them behind.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree. It is clear.
So since Jesus referred to himself as the son of man, why do you think we can refer to the son of man - whom Jesus spoke of as coming - as someone else? What scriptural basis do you have for doing so?

Jesus was the Son of man, and Baha'u'llah was the return of the Son of man who brought the Holy Spirit. Baha'u'llah was also the return of Christ, because He was the Comforter that Jesus promised to send from the Father. I explained that to Brian2 a few days ago.

Brian2 said:If Jesus was in heaven when Baha'u'llah was on earth then Jesus spirit was in heaven then.

Trailblazer said: There is the soul and the spirit and the Holy Spirit.

The words soul and spirit mean the same thing because the soul is the human spirit; but the Holy Spirit is different, it is the Bounty of God.

So the soul (spirit) of Jesus ascended to heaven (as per Acts 1:9) and it has remained in heaven ever since.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Jesus was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit to humanity.

When Jesus ascended to heaven, He sent another Comforter, as He had promised to do.

Jesus sent the Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit to humanity, again.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Baha'u'llah was the Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to send from the Father, since Jesus was with the Father in heaven. That is why we have this verse:

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
*********************************
There is no basis to believe that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Son of man who would return to earth in the Son of man verses, and there is also no basis for believing that the same man Jesus would ever return to earth, as I explained in this thread I started w while ago:

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

 

[nPeace]

If it was all in his plan he needed Hitler, Himmler, Mengele, Goebbels, and other key Nazis were they were to cause the ruckus that lead to WWII. It could have been anyone, but it had to be someone (sort of like Judas). And a god who's intentions to fulfill prophecy would make the actions of the Nazi's necessary to lead to the failure of the League of Nations to the UN could come about is sick, cruel, and barbaric.

It was not all his plan. Where did you read that?

 

[nPeace]

Jesus was the Son of man, and Baha'u'llah was the return of the Son of man who brought the Holy Spirit. Baha'u'llah was also the return of Christ, because He was the Comforter that Jesus promised to send from the Father. I explained that to Brian2 a few days ago.

Brian2 said:If Jesus was in heaven when Baha'u'llah was on earth then Jesus spirit was in heaven then.

Trailblazer said: There is the soul and the spirit and the Holy Spirit.

The words soul and spirit mean the same thing because the soul is the human spirit; but the Holy Spirit is different, it is the Bounty of God.

So the soul (spirit) of Jesus ascended to heaven (as per Acts 1:9) and it has remained in heaven ever since.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Jesus was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit to humanity.

When Jesus ascended to heaven, He sent another Comforter, as He had promised to do.

Jesus sent the Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit to humanity, again.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Baha'u'llah was the Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to send from the Father, since Jesus was with the Father in heaven. That is why we have this verse:

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
*********************************
There is no basis to believe that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Son of man who would return to earth in the Son of man verses, and there is also no basis for believing that the same man Jesus would ever return to earth, as I explained in this thread I started w while ago:

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

We've been through this before. The comforter is the holy spirit. The same holy spirit Jesus promised to send. He poured this out on his followers in 33 CE (Acts 2) . It is not a person.
Anyway, I know how this will go, and I don't want to go there again, nor derail the thread. Take care.