1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Contradiction of an All-powerful, All-knowing God

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by scott777, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,568
    Ratings:
    +563


    If God does not Love Unconditionally then your god is not at a Higher Level. Further, your god lacks the intelligence to make the best possible choices. Clearly, your god needs more education, more lessons.



    In a multilevel classroom, when students learn, they move on. They are replaced with new students in need of lessons. You might think telling people to be good makes them good, but it doesn't. People must live their lessons and experience all sides before they have true understanding.



    To label a person as evil is just an exercise in hate simply because their only problem is the lack of knowledge, the lack of understanding.



    I think repenting is useless energy spent. It only serves to make people feel good emotionally. Since God doesn't need it, why should I? I would trade it all for people learning and acquiring true understanding. That usually takes living lots of lesson for most.



    I think when you threaten a person with an eternal punishment that is using intimidation. Further, you are trying to coerce them into altering their actions to what you want them to be. The Real God doesn't do it. Why does mankind? Mankind does it to get followers and to control the actions of others to their will.



    Satan does not exist except in the minds of people. Unlike God, people value Blame. People just must have someone to blame. I do not value Blame. I value Results. That is what I always work for, the results toward the Higher Level, acquiring more knowledge and wisdom along the way.



    If Satan really existed, why is God not capable of fixing the poor guy? Religious stories can never translate into reality.



    I find it funny that you say people need to serve God. Whatever do you think God really needs from us? I think you do not understand God at all. As I see it, God is Unconditional Love. Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. For God, it has never been about God. It's about us, God's children. Further, this entire physical world and universe exists for only one reason. It's causal nature is perfect for our Education. We are Living our Lessons.



    AS I see it, so often people picture God as they want to be, making God value all the petty things they hold so dear. I find it funny so many are quick to blindly believe instead of venturing out to discover what God is really all about for themselves. It's all out there waiting to be discovered. God is hiding nothing and God doesn't write books to do it.
     
  2. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,400
    Ratings:
    +424
    Religion:
    Christian
    Let's look at Genesis 2:7:

    7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.​

    Man is much more than simply dust from the earth. He is a living creature. When Adam died, his body returned to dust, but what God breathed into him did not.


    Oh come on URAVIP2ME!

    You’re arguing if someone enters someplace permanent they cannot exit??

    Have you ever walked into a permanent structure and left? Why on earth (or hell) wouldn’t Jesus be able to do the same??

    It’s hard to believe someone who can articulate their particular POV so well could be persuaded (must less convinced) by reasoning like this!
     
  3. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,400
    Ratings:
    +424
    Religion:
    Christian
    There are plenty of biblical examples where children were spared URAVIP2ME, not destroyed. In fact, God would have spared the entire city of Sodom for the sake of 10 good people! What message does that tell you about God?

    The fact is, there are millions upon millions of cases where children did not grow up to be like their adulterous/blasphemous/incestuous/lying//murdering/stealing parent or parents. God knows the names of all those written in the Book of Life so there is absolutely no need for God to send a meteor buzzing into the local maternity ward for something their parent did.

    I don’t understand how any religious Organization could preach such a horrendous message about God’s mercy, grace and love.
     
  4. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,400
    Ratings:
    +424
    Religion:
    Christian
    This is not a sin anyone living has to worry about today.

    The unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Jesus showed irrefutable proof that he was the Messiah by performing miracles. The Pharisees knew he was the Messiah yet claimed he performed miracles by Beelzebub, an unclean spirit (Matthew 12:24, Mark 3:30).

    Jesus is not miraculously curing the withered hands of the disabled, so no one now has an opportunity to witness this action of the Holy Spirit and then claim he’s under the influence of demons, which means any sin you or I commit can be forgiven.
     
  5. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,400
    Ratings:
    +424
    Religion:
    Christian
    If it means only "at each present time" then how do you explain Psalm 139:16?

    Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
    in your book were written, every one of them,
    the days that were formed for me,
    when as yet there was none of them

    Obviously, if God is confounded by our free will it could never be said anyone's name is written in the book of life. Why? Because God would have no idea who was going to marry who, when they would decide to have sex, etc.

    Your premise is not tenable.

    You are correct when you say the foundation of the "world" and not the "earth" (My apology....I was quoting from memory), but how does this help your argument? If God doesn't know who's going to marry who or, as was the custom back in the day, who Daddy was going to pick for his son's bride, or whether mom thought the dowry sufficient, how could He possibly write anyone's name in the Book of Life since "the foundation of the world"?

    Correct…they will NOT have their name blotted out. That means their names were already there…something you Organization claims impossible because God is ignorant of our “free will” actions.

    I'm not seeing how the Watchtower resolves the issue but obviously as a believer in your Organization's doctrine you have. The question must have come up before so I would be interested in how they responded.

    Yes!

    This is a psalm written by David in which he requests those seeking his demise be blotted from the book of life. Of course, we know that anyone who has their name written in the book cannot be blotted out.


    24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude)


    Note it is Jesus, not ourselves, that keeps us from stumbling. Left to ourselves we would most certainly stumble. And no one can blot out anyone’s name written in the book of life, for no can snatch them out of Jesus’s hand. (John 10: 28-29)

    We are sealed for the date of redemption (Ephesians 4:30) and NOT until the date we sin, lie, commit apostasy or whatever. If we were only sealed to the date we sinned, our election would be unsure, but as it is, we can have total confidence rather than a queasy feeling about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! (John 3: 15-16)
     
  6. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    Absolutely true! And unlike the witnesses, true Christians don't have to worry about, did I knock on enough doors, did I go to enough meetings, and so on.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    And for my granddaughters name to be written in the book of life, God had to know a little something! He knows more than the witnesses want to accept.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,400
    Ratings:
    +424
    Religion:
    Christian
    IMO, your Organization's analysis is horribly incorrect and extremely unscriptural!

    Lies have no power over truth. God does NOT need to lie to be declared all powerful. That is simply another lie of Satan and I’m rather amazed any self-proclaimed Christian Organization would suggest, hint, or imply that God needs to lie before they consider Him all powerful.

    What next URAVIP2ME? After He lies, would your Organization explain they need to see Him adulterate, fornicate and worship a false god too?

    "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)

    Hebrew 6:18 simply tells us God does not lie because He chooses not to lie. So why can't He lie? Because He lacks the power? No! Because His word is truth (Psalm 119:16) and in His hand is power and might (1 Chronicles 29:12).
     
  9. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,400
    Ratings:
    +424
    Religion:
    Christian
    I hope they're not going door to door implying God is going to kill their children if they don't accept an ever changing message that is somehow "The good news of the Kingdom" but it's definitely the impression from this post:

    If your granddaughter has preceded you, I have no doubt you will see her again. :)
     
  10. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    3,063
    Ratings:
    +755
    Religion:
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    Which is why i said a low number would go to a permanent hell.
     
  11. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    You really need to get out from under those false teachers, they are leading to to "Hades" along with themselves.

    You say Jesus went to the hell of Acts 2:27, which is just the common grave, correct?

    Acts 2:27 (ESV Strong's) 27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.


    What did Jesus say about hades?

    Luke 16:22-23 (ESV Strong's) The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

    You can believe it was some kind of parable if you like, or maybe Jesus and His disciples were sitting around a campfire telling stories and Jesus just added a little excitement to His, but, if hell or hades is just the common grave, and the disciples knew that, why would Jesus add the torment and fire part to His tale?
     
  12. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    Foundation means, a throwing or laying down, and Rev 13:8 says He was slain from the throwing or laying down, so He was slain from when Adam sinned, it didn't start with Abel.

    Revelation 13:8 (ASV) 8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

    God had set it in motion, before Abel.

    Genesis 3:15 (ESV Strong's) 15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,949
    Ratings:
    +2,510
    I find the un-biblical teaching of hell fire is that No one in hell ever gets out of eternal hell but burns forever.
    If biblical hell was permanent then hell could Not end. Revelation 20:13-14 talks about an end to hell when emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for biblical hell or the grave.
    So, the Bible's hell is Not a permanent place, but a temporary sleeping place until the dead in biblical hell are resurrected out of hell by Jesus - Revelation 1:18.
     
    #153 URAVIP2ME, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,949
    Ratings:
    +2,510
    Yes, agree God set in motion 'before' Abel as per Genesis 3:15. In motion ' after ' Adam and Eve sinned.
    At Matthew 23:35 Jesus counts back to Abel as the foundation of righteous mankind, Abel as the foundation of the righteous world.
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,949
    Ratings:
    +2,510
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,949
    Ratings:
    +2,510
    Since death is the wages or price tag that sin pays as per Romans 6:23; Romans 6:7 then yes I agree she would have a resurrection. Just as there was No post-mortem penalty for Adam there is No post-mortem for her.
    Only those who commit the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6 will never be forgiven.
    Jesus has power over the grave - Revelation 1:18.

    Jesus did instruct to proclaim the good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44), and that good news will continue until the time of Isaiah 61:2 B. That time of Isaiah 61:2 B will be a 'day of vengeance' for those figurative haughty ' goats ' of Matthew 25:31-33 during the coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth.
     
  17. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    Which makes no sense whatsoever. Was Jesus just telling a fairy tale? If hell/hades is just the common grave, and there is no torment, of fire or living souls, why would Jesus make the illustration or a word picture story that it is real, why would He tell of something that isn't real?
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,949
    Ratings:
    +2,510
    Thank you for your reply. An illustration or a parable story does Not have to a fairy tale, but creating a word picture in the mind to serve as a memory aid. Jesus gave us many illustrative stories for us to remember.
    Besides Luke 16, I find Jesus gave the illustration or parable of the two debtors at Luke 7:41, the sower at Luke 8, weed/tares among wheat at Matthew 13, the mustard grain at Luke 13:18-19, The leaven at Matthew 13, the hidden treasure at Matthew 13, the businessman seeking pearls at Matthew 13, the dragnet at Matthew 13, the unmerciful person at Matthew 18:23-35, the neighborly good Samaritan was also a story and Not a real happening at Luke 10:25-37, the pesty friend at Luke 11, the unreasonable rich man at Luke 12, the unproductive fig tree at Luke 13:6-9, the grand meal at Luke 14:16-24; the lost sheep of Luke 15:3-7; the lost coin at Luke 15:8-10; the prodigal son at Luke 15:11-32; the unrighteous person at Luke 16:1-8 plus many more teaching illustrations.
     
  19. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    3,063
    Ratings:
    +755
    Religion:
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    I don't know if you're a Jehovah's Witness, but it seems like you may be. I believe there is a living spirit that resides in the physical body. That spirit enters the body at birth or sometime during pregnancy. That spirit leaves the physical body at death and is very much alive and conscious. There are different meanings of hell, but to not turn this into a very long post, I'll keep my view simple. Some spirits are in hell when they die and others are not. Every person will be resurrected. When that time comes, the spirit re-enters the physical body and becomes an immortal spritual and physical being. Most of those who were in hell are now redeemed from hell and come forth to enjoy a degree of heavenly glory and joy. There are a few, who are not really well identified or well defined IMO, who will never be redeemed from hell. They stay in a permanent state of unhappiness forever, both before and after the resurrection. I tried to keep that even shorter, but failed. :)
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,949
    Ratings:
    +2,510
    I find starting at Luke 16:14 Jesus is addressing those hate-filled Pharisees.
    Those Pharisees (before Jesus) held a high standing with men, but Jesus was teaching 'change was coming'.
    Now, the tables, so to speak, would turn on them. A dramatic change in a reversal of positions to take place.
    Those religious leaders adhered to the Law of Moses, so they said.
    Jesus enrages those Pharisees at Luke 16:18. The old Mosaic Law allowed for divorce on various grounds, but now Jesus says everyone who divorces a wife and marries another commits adultery .......
    Jesus was underscoring to them the magnitude of the change he is bringing about.
    Those money-loving, self-righteous Pharisees are like that un-named rich man at Luke 16:19-21.
    The Pharisees viewed the poor, or common people, with contempt.
    The beggar named Lazarus even wants spiritual droppings or crumbs from the Pharisees' table.
    But those Pharisees think of the common folk as spiritually diseased ( covered with ulcers, etc. )
    Those listening to Jesus know Abraham was still asleep in the grave -Psalms 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
    No one who died before Jesus' died 'ascended' according to John 3:13. That includes King David of Acts 2:34.
    So, father Abraham did Not yet see the fulfillment of God's resurrection promise as per Hebrews 11:13,39.
    Since the Law, John (the baptizer) came in connection to Jesus - Matthew 11:13 - so, the preaching of John and Jesus brought about a change of position. The spiritually deprived common people would now have plenty.
    Whereas those of that 'rich man class of religious leaders' (aka Pharisees) refuse to accept Jesus.
    They are angry and tormented by what John and Jesus had to say. What a relief it would be if John and Jesus would let up preaching. That preaching was a fiery judgement message to them.
    Jesus would Not compromise or 'water down' his message to satisfy to bring relief to the Pharisees.
    Those Pharisees were having their ' fill ' of good things at that moment in their lifetime, and since that would change it was a great gap or chasm permanently fixed between them and the common Lazarus people- Luke 16:25-26.
     
Loading...