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The Contradiction of an All-powerful, All-knowing God

Super Universe

Defender of God
The topic was mass energy to which you replied "Space is time? There was no scientific principle for space being time. Even today that is an advanced concept that scientists have trouble with.". What has space time to do with the topic. You were either confusing or confused... Which?

Im not the one spouting the claimed thoughts of god, which incidentally totally agree with your own thoughts.

And now we have ad hom, methinks the the angry one is you. Btw why do you keep associating atheism with christmas?

They were christian, and its not up to you to decide who is and who isn't a good christian

The story was relevant because you accused me of anger, i put your ignorance in context. Therefore very relevant

So now you are blaming me because you cant debate a subject? I smell projection.

Nope im discussing it, sorry if you don't like fact.

Why are you so hung up on philosophy, you can't understand a topic so you scream for philosophy.
Boo hoo.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
What makes sense to me is not necessarily true? Think about it. What is the real reason you don't believe in aliens? The answer is not something you are going to easily admit to.

Do to a lack of verifiable information, I lack a strong opinion either way.

When I dream, how does my brain know to create a completely autonomous entity to have a conversation with me? The brain is incapable of anything like that. The brain is not a biological information storage device, it's a biological receiver/transmitter. Our dreams happen in our mind which does not exist in our brains. The mind exists in God. The brain only receives the signal.

So how have you verified this?

I was complaining about the state of reality I find myself in? I wasn't. What I said was "Jesus said that if we knew who we were we could tell a mountain to move and it would move." I didn't say I was disappointed or upset about it.

Here is what you said about God not meeting your expectations:

God lives up to my expectations? Not even close. My expectations would be that God would provide a safe learning environment for His children to learn. There is nothing safe about a primitive society with serial killers, molesters, sexual deviants, thieves, liars, selfish people, and control freaks.

Seems like a complaint to me.

Things are as they should be? Depends on how your view of it. If Lucifer did not start a rebellion then Adam and Eve would not have failed and humanity would be much farther evolved than we are and Jesus probably would have picked another planet for His material being mission. There are a lot of things that I would have done differently.

See, "things you would have done differently" Isn't that complaining about how things were done?

Perhaps the only thing God is doing is moving things around? If you could move farther out in the universe you would see new nebula's forming where there were none before and you would see some of those nebula's spin up into spiral galaxies.

How do you know these things were created from nothing?

Scientology is all about channeling? Auditing is not channeling. I think you have a very wide definition of channeling. Meditation is also not channeling. Dreams are not channeling either. Channeling is having a telepathic connection with another being and allowing that being to use your body to convey information.

Channelling is only what you say it is because you're the expert? How much channelling have you done. Have you ever been in a Scientology session?

I'm agreeing with you that neither you or I know when the next genetic change will happen? There is a source that is saying that the next genetic change is already starting but it's not what I would consider a "credible" source.

Look, I'm relying on what you are telling me. Then you disagree with it. I feel like I'm willing to give you more the benefit of the doubt then you give yourself.

You were hoping for an introduction to aliens? You shouldn't. The ones that are coming here are disobeying the law of non-interference. They are up to no good.

You got that from Star Trek didn't you? ;)

The Double Slit Experiment result is theory? The experiment result is not theory. The result is fact. Why and how the universe works like that is where the theory part comes in.

Sorry, but your posts seem to consist of random thoughts. Which may or may not be valid, but there's no common direction to them.

Maybe you're too distracted by Christine. No offense but it is getting too exhausting to remind you of your previous comments that I'm responding to.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
No god can be all-knowing and all-powerful.

This not a new argument, but I’d like to hear any fresh takes on it.

If a god is all knowing, he must know in advance everything every person is going to do and can therefore judge them even before giving them life.

If he judges they should go to hell, there is no reason to give them life. In fact, that would simply allow them to do whatever bad things they are going to do, so the decision to give them life would itself be a sin and a contribution to evil.

If he judges they should go to heaven, there is again no possible reason for them to have a life, which would be a comparative punishment.

Therefore, if any god is all-knowing and all-powerful, none of us would be alive.



The error of your assumption is that God is like what religion teaches. Your further assumption is that for God, it's all about God.

How about this: If God is Unconditional Love,God's actions are in the best interest for us, His children. That means the fiery pit of Hell exists only in the eyes of religion. It is not real. Next, for Heaven to exist, people have to be wise enough to be able to live in it. If the people on Earth suddenly found themselves in Heaven, how long would it stay peaceful?

As I see it, It's all about Us, God's Children. This physical world exists in order to educate us toward perfection where Heaven can be possible. Along the way, we get to experience it all, learn it all, through our free choices.

Sure God is all powerful and all knowing. That is why all the kiddies will make it to Heaven no matter how many lifetimes it takes to get there.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Do to a lack of verifiable information, I lack a strong opinion either way.



So how have you verified this?



Here is what you said about God not meeting your expectations:

God lives up to my expectations? Not even close. My expectations would be that God would provide a safe learning environment for His children to learn. There is nothing safe about a primitive society with serial killers, molesters, sexual deviants, thieves, liars, selfish people, and control freaks.

Seems like a complaint to me.



See, "things you would have done differently" Isn't that complaining about how things were done?



How do you know these things were created from nothing?



Channelling is only what you say it is because you're the expert? How much channelling have you done. Have you ever been in a Scientology session?



Look, I'm relying on what you are telling me. Then you disagree with it. I feel like I'm willing to give you more the benefit of the doubt then you give yourself.



You got that from Star Trek didn't you? ;)



Sorry, but your posts seem to consist of random thoughts. Which may or may not be valid, but there's no common direction to them.

Maybe you're too distracted by Christine. No offense but it is getting too exhausting to remind you of your previous comments that I'm responding to.

You don't believe in aliens because of a lack of verifiable information? So to you all the different life on the earth is not an indication of life anywhere else even though the night sky is full of galaxies?

Have I verified that the brain is a receiver/transitter? How would I do that?

God does did not meet my expectations? My expectations were primitive. I used to think, like most religions teach, that God was all concerned with humans and very involved with humanity. He's not.

There are things I would have done differently? It's not a complaint, it's a realization that it's not about me or you getting what we want. A child can complain that they did not get a Barbie doll house for Christmas but when the child grows up they may understand that her father had just lost his job and had to get the car fixed and pay bills so he did not have the money to get her what she wanted.

How do I know nebula's and galaxies were created from nothing? They were not created from nothing. Space is a matrix.

Am I an expert in channeling? Don't know. What defines a channeling expert?

How much channeling have I done? None. How many NASA scientists have been to Mars or the moon or Jupiter?

Have I ever been in a Scientology session? No way. That's never going to happen.

You're relying on what I tell you? Why would you do that? I am neither the Alpha nor the Omega. Look things up for yourself and make up your own mind.

I got the law of non-interference from Star Trek? Actually no. The Star Trek people violated the prime directive somewhat often in order to help beings. In reality the more evolved beings in the universe never help lower beings other than in extremely rare cases they will quickly give some advice and then leave.

My posts seem to consist of random thoughts? You're confusing yourself.

There is no common direction to my posts? Each line is a response to a separate question. They're not supposed to blend together. If you are confused that is because you are trying to impose your own preconceived ideas onto what I am saying. People find it incredibly difficult to tear down the structures they have built to support what they want to believe.

I don't see Christine's posts anymore.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I believe God has revealed that we lived with him before we were born. He sent us to earth to learn and grow. He wants us to have joy in this life and the next. We have an eternal destiny to live with God and continue to progress forever. There are a couple of versus of scripture that say an awful lot:
"Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy." - Book of Mormon
"This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man". - Pearl of Great Price.

I find Adam had No pre-human existence but was made form the dust of the ground - Genesis 2:7 - and at Adam's death Adam ' returned ' to the dust of the ground according to Genesis 3:19.
A person can Not ' return ' or ' go back ' to a place he never was before, so Adam simply went back to where he started from which was the dust of the Earth.

Since the wicked will be destroyed forever according to Psalms 92:7 then there is No eternal destiny anywhere.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
But then there is still the problem of how he can be all-powerful and all-knowing. He must know if we are going to be bad and go to hell. So why doesn't he send us straight there and avoid the terrible things that some people do?

God can read hearts which we can't, but I find because of free-will choices our hearts and mind's choices can change for better or for worse. If we choose Not to repent, then we will perish (be destroyed) - 2nd Peter 3:9.

Can you think of anyone righteous that went to hell ?______
The day righteous Jesus' died Jesus went to hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27
So, if the Bible's hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in hell.
Rather, at his death Jesus was simply in biblical hell or the temporary grave for the dead.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Sure God is all powerful and all knowing. That is why all the kiddies will make it to Heaven no matter how many lifetimes it takes to get there.

Rather, I find parents are responsible for minor children according to 1 Corinthians 7:14.
The executed children of Noah's day were destroyed.
We are all given two (2) choices to either ' repent ' or we will ' perish ' ( be destroyed - 2 Peter 3:9 )
So, the minor children of wicked parents will perish with the parents because the wicked will be destroyed forever according to Psalms 92:7.

I find No mention of kiddies at Luke 22:28-30 but adults in heaven who choose to serve God as Jesus does.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I believe in hell, ......................, only a low number of people will actually be in a state of unhappiness (hell) forever. All of the rest will have salvation, but with different degrees of glory and joy.

I wonder how 'all the rest can have salvation' when Jesus taught that would Not be the case for anyone committing the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32, and Hebrews 6:4-6.

I find the Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary grave for the sleeping un-conscious dead.
The day Jesus' died he went to biblical hell. If biblical hell was a forever place Jesus would still be in hell.
Rather, Jesus, and the old Hebrew Scriptures, teach the dead are in a sleep-like state:
- John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
And as Revelation 20:13-14 teaches that everyone in ' hell ' will be ' delivered up ' (KJV) meaning 'resurrected' out of biblical hell before emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell (grave).
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So you don't believe in hell? We can do anything and he won't punish us?

I find we can Not commit the unforgivable sin of Matthew12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6 and be forgiven.
The punishment for the wicked is annihilation, or being destroyed forever as Psalms 92:7 says.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Then we can agree God is not fooled or left guessing because we have free choice. He is not ignorant. He knows what is in our hearts and our minds long before we do
You’ll also notice that Revelation 13:7-8 tells us all the names in the Book of Life were written “...before the foundations of the earth were formed” and not during or after. Having one's name already written in the Book of Life would be awfully hard to do if our God were constantly bedazzled or confounded by our free will.
God had a cure for mankind even with all our faults which is why He decided to allow us to be. To Him belong all the praise and glory forever

NO, I Never said God knows what is in our hearts and mind 'long before we do' . Absolutely did Not say that.
Saying God can read hearts does NOT mean in advance, but at each present time. - Isaiah 11:3-4.
As Ezekiel wrote to us at Ezekiel 11:19; 18:31; 36:26 that a heart of stone can become like a heart of flesh (soft).
We all have the free-will choices of 2 Peter 3:9 to either ' repent ' (soften heart and mind) or ' perish '(harden into a heart of stone).

KJV Revelation 13:8 says that all that dwell (live) upon the earth shall worship him ('him' being the beast of Revelation 13:1 ) whose names are NOT written in the book of life of the 'Lamb slain from the foundation of the world' . So, it was the Lamb (aka Jesus Revelation 5:12) who was slain from the foundation of the world (Not the foundation of the Earth) but the foundation of the world of mankind starting with Abel. The Lamb ( Jesus slain from the foundation the world of mankind ). In other words, from the time of Abel as per Matthew 23:38; Genesis 3:15.

The ones who ' overcome ' will Not have their names blotted out of the book of life according to Revelation 3:5.
Blotted out means can be taken out or erased out of the book of life - Exodus 32:32-33.
Any thoughts about Psalms 69:28
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Rather, I find parents are responsible for minor children according to 1 Corinthians 7:14.
The executed children of Noah's day were destroyed.
We are all given two (2) choices to either ' repent ' or we will ' perish ' ( be destroyed - 2 Peter 3:9 )
So, the minor children of wicked parents will perish with the parents because the wicked will be destroyed forever according to Psalms 92:7.

I find No mention of kiddies at Luke 22:28-30 but adults in heaven who choose to serve God as Jesus does.

What does that say about a God unwilling or unable to fix His children rather than destroy them? How can a God of Unconditional Love pick the lower level of destroying the children? It doesn't matter what mankind writes in those holy books. It's not going to happen. Further, I don't think the real God would use fear and intimidation with the threat of destruction for the purpose of coercing the children. God has to be much smarter than that.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
If a god is all knowing, he must know in advance everything every person is going to do and can therefore judge them even before giving them life.

That belief is where people make their false reasoning's of God. The only humans God create and gave life to, were Adam and Eve, no one else. He told Adam and Eve to "multiply and fill the earth". When a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, do you believe it was God who caused the baby to be conceived?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What does that say about a God unwilling or unable to fix His children rather than destroy them? How can a God of Unconditional Love pick the lower level of destroying the children? It doesn't matter what mankind writes in those holy books. It's not going to happen. Further, I don't think the real God would use fear and intimidation with the threat of destruction for the purpose of coercing the children. God has to be much smarter than that.

I wonder where in the Bible does it say that God has Un-conditional love.
I find 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 definitely shows conditions.
Jesus too at John 4:23-24 gives the condition that we must worship God with truth.
At John 17:17 Jesus believed that Scripture is religious truth such as the Golden Rule life style.

If everyone lived by God's Golden 'fixing' Rule then there would be No destruction because there would be No wicked ones on Earth. The choice God gives is to ' repent '. Do you think repenting is intimidation or coercing.
Children are Not being coerced. 'Parents' are responsible for minor children as per 1 Corinthians 7:14.

Satan challenges ALL of us at Job 2:4-5 that under adverse conditions ' touch our 'flesh' (loose health) and we would Not serve God. Only the passing of time could answer such a challenge.
 

scott777

Member
God can read hearts which we can't, but I find because of free-will choices our hearts and mind's choices can change for better or for worse. If we choose Not to repent, then we will perish (be destroyed) - 2nd Peter 3:9.
If God is good and all-knowing, he would know whether we will repent and destroy the non-repenters. There could be no reason not to.
 

scott777

Member
That belief is where people make their false reasoning's of God. The only humans God create and gave life to, were Adam and Eve, no one else. He told Adam and Eve to "multiply and fill the earth". When a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, do you believe it was God who caused the baby to be conceived?
Fair enough, but the logic still applies. An all-knowing all-powerful God could and must surely prevent anyone from being born if he deems it necessary.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If God is good and all-knowing, he would know whether we will repent and destroy the non-repenters. There could be no reason not to.

Because God gave us free-will choices shows that God is Not all-knowing. God chooses Not to know our choices in advance but God does teach us if we do Not want to perish with the wicked as per Psalms 92:7 then we should ' repent '.
We choose whether we want to be a figurative haughty 'goat'-type person, or a humble 'sheep'-type person as found in the illustration at Matthew 25:31-33,37.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Fair enough, but the logic still applies. An all-knowing all-powerful God could and must surely prevent anyone from being born if he deems it necessary.

I find there is No reason for God to deem or prevent anyone from being born.
Besides Creator, God is our Father. The word ' father ' means: life giver.
So, God is Not our life taker, but our Life Giver.
The wicked abuse the gift of life often bringing harm in some way to another's life.

Hebrews 6:18; Titus 1:2 shows God is Not all-powerful because God can Not lie. So there are things God can Not do.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I wonder where in the Bible does it say that God has Un-conditional love.
I find 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 definitely shows conditions.
Jesus too at John 4:23-24 gives the condition that we must worship God with truth.
At John 17:17 Jesus believed that Scripture is religious truth such as the Golden Rule life style.

If everyone lived by God's Golden 'fixing' Rule then there would be No destruction because there would be No wicked ones on Earth. The choice God gives is to ' repent '. Do you think repenting is intimidation or coercing.
Children are Not being coerced. 'Parents' are responsible for minor children as per 1 Corinthians 7:14.

Satan challenges ALL of us at Job 2:4-5 that under adverse conditions ' touch our 'flesh' (loose health) and we would Not serve God. Only the passing of time could answer such a challenge.



If God does not Love Unconditionally then your god is not at a Higher Level. Further, your god lacks the intelligence to make the best possible choices. Clearly, your god needs more education, more lessons.



In a multilevel classroom, when students learn, they move on. They are replaced with new students in need of lessons. You might think telling people to be good makes them good, but it doesn't. People must live their lessons and experience all sides before they have true understanding.



To label a person as evil is just an exercise in hate simply because their only problem is the lack of knowledge, the lack of understanding.



I think repenting is useless energy spent. It only serves to make people feel good emotionally. Since God doesn't need it, why should I? I would trade it all for people learning and acquiring true understanding. That usually takes living lots of lesson for most.



I think when you threaten a person with an eternal punishment that is using intimidation. Further, you are trying to coerce them into altering their actions to what you want them to be. The Real God doesn't do it. Why does mankind? Mankind does it to get followers and to control the actions of others to their will.



Satan does not exist except in the minds of people. Unlike God, people value Blame. People just must have someone to blame. I do not value Blame. I value Results. That is what I always work for, the results toward the Higher Level, acquiring more knowledge and wisdom along the way.



If Satan really existed, why is God not capable of fixing the poor guy? Religious stories can never translate into reality.



I find it funny that you say people need to serve God. Whatever do you think God really needs from us? I think you do not understand God at all. As I see it, God is Unconditional Love. Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. For God, it has never been about God. It's about us, God's children. Further, this entire physical world and universe exists for only one reason. It's causal nature is perfect for our Education. We are Living our Lessons.



AS I see it, so often people picture God as they want to be, making God value all the petty things they hold so dear. I find it funny so many are quick to blindly believe instead of venturing out to discover what God is really all about for themselves. It's all out there waiting to be discovered. God is hiding nothing and God doesn't write books to do it.
 
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