The confessional should be unsealed

[shmogie]

Here in Ontario, every person is required to report child abuse or neglect. Why should priests be exempt?

Reporting abuse and neglect

Answered already. I don´t know about in Canada, but in the US these conversations are privileged. A confessor can, in most cases find a way to convey serious information without breaking the seal of the confessional.

Why not make the state privy to all conversations ?

 

[shmogie]

They shouldn't be exempt, the RCC dogma which requires them not to report crimes which have been disclosed to them however bad, is corrupt and evil.

It is not RCC dogma, it is a legal concept that goes back a thousand years and applies to any recognized confessor of any religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Answered already. I don´t know about in Canada, but in the US these conversations are privileged.

They're privileged in Canada, too. The mandatory reporting law supersedes that.

A confessor can, in most cases find a way to convey serious information without breaking the seal of the confessional.

So then a confessor will be able to comply with the law while not violating his conscience. Good to hear; no exemption needed.

Why not make the state privy to all conversations ?

You do realize that arguing against mandatory reporting laws in general isn't the same as arguing for a special exemption for priests, right?

 

[JJ50]

They're privileged in Canada, too. The mandatory reporting law supersedes that.


So then a confessor will be able to comply with the law while not violating his conscience. Good to hear; no exemption needed.


You do realize that arguing against mandatory reporting laws in general isn't the same as arguing for a special exemption for priests, right?

Doing the right thing and reporting a crime should be much more important to a priest than the dictates of his church.

 

[shmogie]

They're privileged in Canada, too. The mandatory reporting law supersedes that.


So then a confessor will be able to comply with the law while not violating his conscience. Good to hear; no exemption needed.


You do realize that arguing against mandatory reporting laws in general isn't the same as arguing for a special exemption for priests, right?

Yes, but the implication is that the state needs to know what is said, to root out crime. It is logical to assume that if the state were privy to all conversations, that much more crime could be rooted out.

People speak to others about their involvement in crime / if the state heard these discussions the speaking criminal could be punished / therefore in the interest of justice, the state should hear all conversations

A confessor may chose to share in general with no specificity the crime brought to him by the penitent .

The state then has the responsibility to use its resources to investigate the type of crime, then identify a specific crime, then identify a suspect. They may be
able to, they may not.

It is said that a Catholic priest will die rather than reveal a privileged communication. Some Protestant pastors will die if they cannot find someone to tell a privileged communication.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, but the implication is that the state needs to know what is said, to root out crime. It is logical to assume that if the state were privy to all conversations, that much more crime could be rooted out.

People speak to others about their involvement in crime / if the state heard these discussions the speaking criminal could be punished / therefore in the interest of justice, the state should hear all conversations

A confessor may chose to share in general with no specificity the crime brought to him by the penitent .

The state then has the responsibility to use its resources to investigate the type of crime, then identify a specific crime, then identify a suspect. They may be
able to, they may not.

It is said that a Catholic priest will die rather than reveal a privileged communication. Some Protestant pastors will die if they cannot find someone to tell a privileged communication.

I'm not talking about all crimes; I'm talking about child abuse and neglect specifically.

 

[JJ50]

It is about time the catholic church was dragged into the 21st century, and its superstitious dogmas were done away with.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is about time the catholic church was dragged into the 21st century, and its superstitious dogmas were done away with.

I won't stand in the way of Catholics - or people of any religion - believing whatever they want; I just don't want to subsidize their religion or give them special exemptions from overwhelmingly beneficial laws.

Religious accommodation has limits. It's one thing to, say, tweak a uniform policy to allow turbans and crucifuxes; it's a very different proposition to give a special legal sanction for religious ministers to protect child predators.

 

[metis]

I am of the opinion that if someone confesses to a priest a serious crime, they should be obliged by law to inform the police. Giving the miscreant a few hail Mary's is not going to absolve them of their wrong doing. For instance, if the RCC had cracked down on paedophile priests and reported them to the police instead of keeping the knowledge of their misdeeds in house, they would not have been free to abuse again as many of them did.

That simply wouldn't work as if this becomes standard procedure then no one who's committed a crime would go to confession for that.

The role of a priest includes working with the person to try and get them to stop sinning and to try and help them handle difficulties that maybe be the cause of their actions. Therefore, anything that forces them to break the seal of the confessional would be totally counter-productive.

BTW, all churches and synagogues allow for confession one way or another, so it's far from being just a Catholic thingy.

 

[metis]

It is about time the catholic church was dragged into the 21st century, and its superstitious dogmas were done away with.

If you have no irons in the fire, then what is what is this to you? Do you try and micro-manage every else's associations that you're not a part of? Should I follow your example and try to dictate what the organizations you may belong to must supposedly do? Maybe I should even tell you how you must bring up your children?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That simply wouldn't work as if this becomes standard procedure then no one who's committed a crime would go to confession for that.

Ah - Schrodinger's criminal: he believes in the teachings of the Catholic Church enough to go to confession in the first place, but doesn't believe in them enough to see an eternity in Hell as worse than a few years in prison.

The role of a priest includes working with the person to try and get them to stop sinning and to try and help them handle difficulties that maybe be the cause of their actions. Therefore, anything that forces them to break the seal of the confessional would be totally counter-productive.

... to the extent that priests can be trusted to be effective on this, maybe.

Why should we expect that priests can ve trusted to be effective on this?

BTW: priests also try to help sinning Catholics to stop sinning and handle their difficulties when the sinning Catholic is in the justice system.

BTW, all churches and synagogues allow for confession one way or another, so it's far from being just a Catholic thingy.

The idea of an inviolable seal of confession isn't part of all notions of confession (including those the Catholic Church, historically).

 

[JJ50]

If you have no irons in the fire, then what is what is this to you? Do you try and micro-manage every else's associations that you're not a part of? Should I follow your example and try to dictate what the organizations you may belong to must supposedly do? Maybe I should even tell you how you must bring up your children?

As my children are in their 40s, the eldest is 50 next year, I am a bit past that now!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you have no irons in the fire, then what is what is this to you? Do you try and micro-manage every else's associations that you're not a part of? Should I follow your example and try to dictate what the organizations you may belong to must supposedly do? Maybe I should even tell you how you must bring up your children?

If @JJ50 ever tries to set up his own city-state with diplomatic immunity, its own bank, and charitable status in as many countries as he can get it in, and all the tax subsidies he can get, I would certainly be happy to join you in having a closer look into his affairs.

 

[metis]

0 + 0 = 0, and 0 -1 = -1.

IOW, nothing to be gained but with something to lose.

 

[metis]

... to the extent that priests can be trusted to be effective on this, maybe.

Why should we expect that priests can ve trusted to be effective on this?

BTW: priests also try to help sinning Catholics to stop sinning and handle their difficulties when the sinning Catholic is in the justice system.

When you get over your stereotyping and religious bigotry, let me know and maybe we can finally have an adult discussion.

On second thought, frankly I'm not longer interested.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When you get over your stereotyping and religious bigotry, let me know and maybe we can finally have an adult discussion.

What religious bigotry?

The average priest isn't a social worker. The law shouldn't be based on the assumption that priests in the confessional will function as social workers.

 

[syo]

I am of the opinion that if someone confesses to a priest a serious crime, they should be obliged by law to inform the police.

No. That's terrible idea.

 

[JJ50]

No. That's terrible idea.

Why?

 

[syo]

Why?

Because there is no proof that the confession took place. Let's say a priest doesn't like me and he goes to the police and says that I confessed rape or something. How will I prove that I never made such confession????

 

[JJ50]

Because there is no proof that the confession took place. Let's say a priest doesn't like me and he goes to the police and says that I confessed rape or something. How will I prove that I never made such confession????

Why bother confessing to a mere priest, far better to confess to the police?