The Comparison between Judgement Day and Terrorism

[thomas t]

Ironically it is the apocalyptic belief of Christians that lets some keep on polluting with arguments like "Jesus is returning soon anyhow, so climate change will be irrelevant then".
It's the "no future" mentality that is part of Hitchens' critique.

You are totally right in saying that politically right leaning Christians often are against any warnings concerning climate change.
That's a bitter irony for any Christian who does not subscribe to mantras from right wing politics, I think.

BTW, I left one board because my posts were getting censored in a debate about environmentalists.
I know what you are talking about.

However, I've been on two big Christian discussion boards challenging climate change denialism, and this wasn't the argument brought forward against warnings concerning climate.

They often cite Job 38:11 and the likes.

 

[BilliardsBall]

In this video

, Christopher Hitchens compares rapture, which is Judgement Day according to my interpretation, and terrorism calling it both Final Solution.

However, Judgement Day has to do with justice and 9/11 hadn’t had anything to do with justice, for instance.

Moreover, in my opinion there needs to be some sort of separation between those in heaven and the rest to prevent heaven from becoming a place like earth is now.

If you let ocean polluters enter heaven, all the seas would be just as polluted as here on earth, for instance. (see picture by Deutsche Welle, below)

So, it makes sense for God to leave ocean polluters out, I think.

My conclusion, the comparison between judgement day and terrorism does not make any sense whatsoever.

Put differently, according to the Bible, only perfectly moral people can live in a utopia; man is imperfect, men and women need the Savior to perfect them (at the Rapture) for Heaven's utopia, so trust Jesus for Heaven.

 

[loverofhumanity]

In this video

, Christopher Hitchens compares rapture, which is Judgement Day according to my interpretation, and terrorism calling it both Final Solution.

However, Judgement Day has to do with justice and 9/11 hadn’t had anything to do with justice, for instance.

Moreover, in my opinion there needs to be some sort of separation between those in heaven and the rest to prevent heaven from becoming a place like earth is now.

If you let ocean polluters enter heaven, all the seas would be just as polluted as here on earth, for instance. (see picture by Deutsche Welle, below)

So, it makes sense for God to leave ocean polluters out, I think.

My conclusion, the comparison between judgement day and terrorism does not make any sense whatsoever.

My understanding of judgement day is it is also resurrection day.

Each age when a new Prophet of God arises people have a choice - to accept or reject Him. By doing this they pronounce judgement upon themselves as either one who has accepted or rejected the truth. The judgement is done by the individual upon himself.

So when Christ appeared for example, the Jews by accepting Him, pronounced the verdict of sincerity upon themselves and those who rejected him likewise issued the verdict of insincerity upon themselves.

And the consequences of rejecting God’s Messengers and going our own way are things like constant wars, violence, crime, drug addiction, pollution of the environment, greed, poverty and general unhappiness abound. So we make our beds according to our decisions and choices then have to sleep in them.

But it’s our choice so the world is the way it is as a consequence of our judgement made against the Prophets. Their path of virtues and upright character would lead to a far better world if we choose that path. Terrorism is just another consequence of disobedience to God’s laws not to kill.

 

[danieldemol]

So when Christ appeared for example, the Jews by accepting Him, pronounced the verdict of sincerity upon themselves and those who rejected him likewise issued the verdict of insincerity upon themselves.

Nah, in my opinion that's just polemic content against the Jews, and ego stroking, nothing to see here.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Nah, in my opinion that's just polemic content against the Jews, and ego stroking, nothing to see here.

Untrue. What crime was Christ guilty of to nail Him to a cross and behead His followers? Christ wasn’t seeking temporal power or to overthrow their kingdom. He was a spiritual teacher who taught love so why crucify a person for preaching about love? Says a lot about those who would put to death innocent people.

 

[danieldemol]

Untrue. What crime was Christ guilty of to nail Him to a cross and behead His followers? Christ wasn’t seeking temporal power or to overthrow their kingdom. He was a spiritual teacher who taught love so why crucify a person for preaching about love? Says a lot about those who would put to death innocent people.

Well first of all historically who nailed Jesus to a cross? Was it the Jews?
And historically who beheaded His followers (apart from a some sects of Islam like Isis)?

ETA and why did you shift the goal posts in my opinion from making it about the sincerity of those Jews who accepted Jesus to making it about those Jews who are alleged in the dogmatic version of events to have had Him killed, as though these 2 groups are interchangeable?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well first of all historically who nailed Jesus to a cross? Was it the Jews?
And historically who beheaded His followers (apart from a some sects of Islam like Isis)?

ETA and why did you shift the goal posts in my opinion from making it about the sincerity of those Jews who accepted Jesus to making it about those Jews who are alleged in the dogmatic version of events to have had Him killed, as though these 2 groups are interchangeable?

You know my views. That whatever Baha’u’llah has revealed is truth and fact.

I’m just sharing what Baha’u’llah has said on these matters. But by Jews I understand He is speaking not about all Jews, just those complicit in the crucifixion. Jews are very good people like anyone else.

But this OP is about judgement day and I set out my views that I believe by accepting or rejecting the Manifestation of God for our age we pronounce judgement upon ourselves of spiritual life or spiritual death. The choice is ours.

“O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you.”

Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
Bahá’u’lláh

 

[danieldemol]

Jews are very good people like anyone else.

If Jews are good people then they are not insincere for rejection of Jesus in my opinion.

It sounds as though you want to have your cake and eat it. Either the Jews are good or they are insincere.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If Jews are good people then they are not insincere for rejection of Jesus in my opinion.

It sounds as though you want to have your cake and eat it. Either the Jews are good or they are insincere.

There are good people everywhere but when it comes to beliefs can be insincere if we do not put into practice what we believe.

 

[danieldemol]

There are good people everywhere but when it comes to beliefs can be insincere if we do not put into practice what we believe.

I don't see how this makes sense. The Jews believe that in the lifetime of the Messiah everyone will know God, so they are putting into practice what they believe by rejecting Jesus and due to other prophecies they believe are unfulfilled.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't see how this makes sense. The Jews believe that in the lifetime of the Messiah everyone will know God, so they are putting into practice what they believe by rejecting Jesus and due to other prophecies they believe are unfulfilled.

My understanding is the leaders interpret the passages in a way that they can never be fulfilled so that they can continue to tell their followers He hasn’t come yet.

 

[danieldemol]

My understanding is the leaders interpret the passages in a way that they can never be fulfilled so that they can continue to tell their followers He hasn’t come yet.

I think they were prophecied originally in a way that they will never be fulfilled, as such in my opinion it is slack to lay blame on the Jews for what is really the fault of their leaders the Prophets.

Besides in saying they can't be fulfilled you really just place a limitation on the power of God in my opinion, for God could make everyone know God if an omnipotent God exists.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think they were prophecied originally in a way that they will never be fulfilled, as such in my opinion it is slack to lay blame on the Jews for what is really the fault of their leaders the Prophets.

Besides in saying they can't be fulfilled you really just place a limitation on the power of God in my opinion, for God could make everyone know God if an omnipotent God exists.

The Books are spiritual so require spiritual aptitude. Spirituality only requires a pure heart not a university degree. Prophets usually appear when man is at his lowest ebb spiritually so only a few initially recognise Them.

The prophecies were never meant to be fulfilled literally as in Jesus coming from the literal sky. These were figurative. Christ spoke in parables and figuratively.

 

[danieldemol]

The Books are spiritual so require spiritual aptitude. Spirituality only requires a pure heart not a university degree. Prophets usually appear when man is at his lowest ebb spiritually so only a few initially recognise Them.

The prophecies were never meant to be fulfilled literally as in Jesus coming from the literal sky. These were figurative. Christ spoke in parables and figuratively.

Possibly, but we are talking about the prophecies of the Messiah from the Jewish scriptures here, so unless you have some evidence that Jeremiah for example spoke in parables or was speaking in parables when He said everyone will know God then I don't see how you can rationally impose symbolism onto His prophecies without engaging in eisegeseis.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Possibly, but we are talking about the prophecies of the Messiah from the Jewish scriptures here, so unless you have some evidence that Jeremiah for example spoke in parables or was speaking in parables when He said everyone will know God then I don't see how you can rationally impose symbolism onto His prophecies without engaging in eisegeseis.

They were expecting a great political leader in the ilk of King David and missed the entire point of the Messiah being a spiritual being.


Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

 

[danieldemol]

They were expecting a great political leader in the ilk of King David and missed the entire point of the Messiah being a spiritual being.


Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

I believe you are referring to Jeremiah 23:5-6

So let's examine them;

'See, a time is coming—declares the LORD—when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land.

In his days Judah shall be delivered and Israel shall dwell secure. And this is the name by which he shall be called: “The LORD is our Vindicator.”'

That is from your source.
Let's compare it to the Christian NIV

'“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,

“when I will raise up for David a a righteous Branch,

a King who will reign wisely

and do what is just and right in the land.

6In his days Judah will be saved

and Israel will live in safety.

This is the name by which he will be called:

The Lord Our Righteous Savior.'

But in the days of Jesus Judah was not saved, and Israel did not dwell in safety.

So even if we grant that Jeremiah was speaking in symbolism, it seems not to fit Jesus.

On the other hand if we are talking of Baha'u'llah He was known as Glory of the Lord, i don't know of Him being called "our righteous savior" or "The Lord is our Vindicator"

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe you are referring to Jeremiah 23:5-6

So let's examine them;

'See, a time is coming—declares the LORD—when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land.

In his days Judah shall be delivered and Israel shall dwell secure. And this is the name by which he shall be called: “The LORD is our Vindicator.”'

That is from your source.
Let's compare it to the Christian NIV

'“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,

“when I will raise up for David a a righteous Branch,

a King who will reign wisely

and do what is just and right in the land.

6In his days Judah will be saved

and Israel will live in safety.

This is the name by which he will be called:

The Lord Our Righteous Savior.'

But in the days of Jesus Judah was not saved, and Israel did not dwell in safety.

So even if we grant that Jeremiah was speaking in symbolism, it seems not to fit Jesus.

On the other hand if we are talking of Baha'u'llah He was known as Glory of the Lord, i don't know of Him being called "our righteous savior" or "The Lord is our Vindicator"

If it were interpreted to mean that Israel would be spiritually saved then it could apply to Jesus. The Bible is primarily a spiritual book addressing the soul and heart and a King would be referring to a spiritual king not an earthly one.

 

[danieldemol]

If it were interpreted to mean that Israel would be spiritually saved then it could apply to Jesus. The Bible is primarily a spiritual book addressing the soul and heart and a King would be referring to a spiritual king not an earthly one.

Two problems with this in my opinion are that in the days of Jesus Israel was not "spiritually saved" according to Baha'is and also you have still failed to demonstrate that Jeremiah spoke in symbols or had any intention of His prophecies being interpreted symbolically.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Two problems with this in my opinion are that in the days of Jesus Israel was not "spiritually saved" according to Baha'is and also you have still failed to demonstrate that Jeremiah spoke in symbols or had any intention of His prophecies being interpreted symbolically.

The Jews who did accept Jesus were saved. Israel as. Nation could only be spiritually revived if it chose to but the Messiah appeared and Israel rejected Him. The Messiah comes for hearts and souls so as Israel failed to understand this and expected an earthly king, to this day they still don’t accept Jesus.

As each religion rejects a new messiah they fall behind spiritually.

 

[danieldemol]

As each religion rejects a new messiah they fall behind spiritually.

Again you are making an ego based assertion with no evidence in my opinion.

I guess you can't help yourself, its what your faith appears to be based on