Isaiah had in mind those who would be willing to fulfill the role. Isaiah 53:1 asks "Who has believed our message...?" I think it is like saying "To whom it may concern."
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The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53
- Thread starter Ben Avraham
- Start date
SethZaddik
Active Member
I don't see how anyone could say that the Messiah is the suffering servant when Jews have had a few human Messiahs representing the Star Prophecy?
It sounds like a plan b interpretation. We KNOW Cyrus was the Immanuel Messiah that Israel was the suffering servant.
Sounds like a fulfilled prophecy, where as the Star Prophecy is not unless you are a Flavian.
Helps with a better translation, it says, 'who has believed our rumor'... Sounds something far fetched, when belief and rumor are placed together.
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SethZaddik
Active Member
The Tanakh is too old, even as a Muslim I love my Zohar-Sets more than the Bible.
Which is where I like to go for Messianic prophecies even though Jesus(PBUH) was a Messiah I don't believe he was THE Messiah as there is no Messianic Kingdom or salvation from death, the only thing that never dies.
The paganization of Jesus(PBUH) by the Romans according to Paul was a death blow to the truth of who exactly was Jesus(PBUH) the Nazarene Messiah.
The other Nazarenes called Hemerobaptists by Hegessipus or today's Mandaeans do not believe Jesus was the Messiah. They were pretty hostile to him and have some interesting things to say about Mohammed(PBUH) too. They are nice people and I live in the city with the 4th highest amount of them in the world although you would not know it.
I am waiting for the Ginza Rabba to come in the mail from Germany now, but I think that there is some truth in the Clementines about Simon Magus taking over from John because they are an odd mixture of Judaism and classic so called Gnosticism, certainly not worshippers of YHVH/Allah , unless I misread.
I always forget to add my (PBUH's), it's been a year since I converted and I am still getting used to it and learning about my new religion which is to me what Jesus religion should have been, were it not for Paul I don't know if Islam would still exist or have a reason to reject R.C.
The only (so called) Prophet or Apostle of the Christian tradition rejected by Islam was rejected by the Ebionites who I believe eventually rise up again as Islam. While I know Nestorian Christianity was the religion of Mohammed's uncle (if I'm not mistaken) they had Paul in their religion so the closest thing to Islam is Nazarene or Ebionite "Christianity" before Rome declared the (Jewish copycats of the Romans? I think not) first disciples descendants heretics.
The fall of Rome and rise of Islam are so close chronologically I don't think it a coincidence, Pauline Christianity destroyed the Jewish Messianic movements and then Rome itself.
A free pass to heaven for reciting a mere creed tends to lead to debauchery and corruption, lies.
"If my lie abounds to God's glory, why still am I being judged a sinner? "
Because, Paul, lying is a sin and you did nothing but lie and kill your whole life, and who do you trust to save you in the end of Acts?
666 Nero himself.
How'd that work out for Paul? I believe that the answer is in the Recognitions of Clement, oddly enough a Titus Flavius of Rome and friend of Peter, his mentor.
How did Peter hook up with a relative of the Emporer? I don't know, but it would mean neither Peter or Paul died in 66AD and definitely not together as friends.
Simon Magus is Paul in the story who also appears as the enemy "Saul" who received permission to persecute the Way which links Paul to Saul of Josephus and Acts.
All my rambling ties back into the thread as we need to stop searching for a heavenly Soter or a human Messiah and Israel needs to stop thinking it is the Messiah, it is insane and has never helped the Jewish people at all.
Israel needs to stop thinking it is God's gift to the world, that it can steal Palestinian territory without being opposed to God Himself and never pay a price.
Muslims need to love their enemies, as even Mohammed would say return evil with good.
If everyone did this evil "Sitra Ahra" would pass away.
Which is where I like to go for Messianic prophecies even though Jesus(PBUH) was a Messiah I don't believe he was THE Messiah as there is no Messianic Kingdom or salvation from death, the only thing that never dies.
The paganization of Jesus(PBUH) by the Romans according to Paul was a death blow to the truth of who exactly was Jesus(PBUH) the Nazarene Messiah.
The other Nazarenes called Hemerobaptists by Hegessipus or today's Mandaeans do not believe Jesus was the Messiah. They were pretty hostile to him and have some interesting things to say about Mohammed(PBUH) too. They are nice people and I live in the city with the 4th highest amount of them in the world although you would not know it.
I am waiting for the Ginza Rabba to come in the mail from Germany now, but I think that there is some truth in the Clementines about Simon Magus taking over from John because they are an odd mixture of Judaism and classic so called Gnosticism, certainly not worshippers of YHVH/Allah , unless I misread.
I always forget to add my (PBUH's), it's been a year since I converted and I am still getting used to it and learning about my new religion which is to me what Jesus religion should have been, were it not for Paul I don't know if Islam would still exist or have a reason to reject R.C.
The only (so called) Prophet or Apostle of the Christian tradition rejected by Islam was rejected by the Ebionites who I believe eventually rise up again as Islam. While I know Nestorian Christianity was the religion of Mohammed's uncle (if I'm not mistaken) they had Paul in their religion so the closest thing to Islam is Nazarene or Ebionite "Christianity" before Rome declared the (Jewish copycats of the Romans? I think not) first disciples descendants heretics.
The fall of Rome and rise of Islam are so close chronologically I don't think it a coincidence, Pauline Christianity destroyed the Jewish Messianic movements and then Rome itself.
A free pass to heaven for reciting a mere creed tends to lead to debauchery and corruption, lies.
"If my lie abounds to God's glory, why still am I being judged a sinner? "
Because, Paul, lying is a sin and you did nothing but lie and kill your whole life, and who do you trust to save you in the end of Acts?
666 Nero himself.
How'd that work out for Paul? I believe that the answer is in the Recognitions of Clement, oddly enough a Titus Flavius of Rome and friend of Peter, his mentor.
How did Peter hook up with a relative of the Emporer? I don't know, but it would mean neither Peter or Paul died in 66AD and definitely not together as friends.
Simon Magus is Paul in the story who also appears as the enemy "Saul" who received permission to persecute the Way which links Paul to Saul of Josephus and Acts.
All my rambling ties back into the thread as we need to stop searching for a heavenly Soter or a human Messiah and Israel needs to stop thinking it is the Messiah, it is insane and has never helped the Jewish people at all.
Israel needs to stop thinking it is God's gift to the world, that it can steal Palestinian territory without being opposed to God Himself and never pay a price.
Muslims need to love their enemies, as even Mohammed would say return evil with good.
If everyone did this evil "Sitra Ahra" would pass away.
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It is probably irrelevant to Muslims who have unchangeable views about Jesus except for minor things. Anyway good luck arguing with the purveyors of the Q'uran who listen to no one.
Its also nearly undebatable with Christians. To Christians this is a big deal as it comments upon the nature of Jesus and the Church since it is referred to in the gospels which say it is about him. Suffering service is central in the gospels which are an interpretation of Judaism with an apologetic that involves Isaiah 53 and all the prophets in the canon. The gospels put forward ways of looking at the prophets and the Torah. It therefore matters to Christians how Isaiah 53 is interpreted by Christians. It does not matter to them how Muslims or Jews interpret it usually and with few exceptions.
SethZaddik
Active Member
You do understand that you are talking to a Muslim right?
My views on Issa (PBUH) aren't at all inflexible, but I can't speak for everyone.
The fact is that Mary (PBUH) is mentioned more in the Quran than in the NT and I think even than Issa, though I have not counted. Point being that there are few facts about the life of Issa in the Quran and none NEED to change, but speculation is not foreign to Muslims and neither is diversity of beliefs about Issa.
The relevant information about Issa to Islam is sufficient. He was a Prophet, human though virgin born and possessing miraculous Power from God he was not crucified and didn't ressurect.
He is not God.
Exactly what needs to be changed about this? Certainly makes more sense than the Christian version of events.
I am also white (sort of) and American, I have no problem with Jews at all. It is just obvious to me that Isaiah is fulfilled.
Jewish people are definitely, or at least were for most of history, captives of foreign empires and suffering servants is a great way to describe past Israel.
However are you going to deny that historically speaking and most of the time Muslims were kind to Jews, much like Cyrus?
It would be a good idea to at least acknowledge that Babylon was the head of the Jewish world during Muslim times and before and were treated well by Muslims in general both being slaughtered wholesale in Palestine by Europeans while existing in peace.
And before the 6 days war same thing. Different invader. Yaphethite Jews claiming that God gave them the "Title deed" to Israel or under the impression that this was justified, even though Palestinians did not deserve to be invaded and had lived with the Jews for generations before WW2 ended and they started planning to take it by force.
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Sonny
Active Member
I don't know anything about that (you said, "We KNOW"). How do you know it is true? I've been reading this Thread but I don't see anything different than that Jesus, the Messiah is the figure of Is. 53- and other passages in OT (Ps. 16:10, 22:1, 13-18, 34:20, 69:7-9, 20, 21, 26; Is. 50:5,6, 52:13-15, 59:16; Zec. 11:12, 12:10, Job 16:10). Then, the New Covenant (no longer God's 'impossible to keep' law but God's grace thru Jesus)- Jer. 15:31. So, Isaiah had to be speaking of Jesus. There are just too many references that go with it (fulfilled prophecies about Jesus) for it to be any one or any thing else, to my understanding of these verses anyway.
If you want me to type out the verses I referenced I will. But all pertain to the suffering Messiah (Hebrew) /Christ (Greek).
Sonny
Active Member
Uhh, wasn't that hundreds of years apart? Rome fell around 400 AD, Islam was born with Mohammad (born-570 AD/died-630 AD) around 610 AD. I don't see how anyone can say they are related or comparable.
There are no 'free rides' into Heaven. It cost the perfect blood of Jesus to provide that free 'gift' but it has nothing to do with reciting anything.
You are right! We need to stop "searching" or looking for a coming Messiah bc He already came and He fulfilled Scripture by His life, teachings (New Covenant), death and resurrection.
Would you mind providing all of us with the flag of the Palestinian State before the Jewish State existed? The Bible did prophesy the Jewish homeland would become the Israelis' nation again- after nearly 2,000 years since they was last predicted to return there?
Did he say that before or after he was personally present and slaughtered 800-900 Jews for not converting to Islam?
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SethZaddik
Active Member
Maybe I have a better understanding of the way Jews read the scripture both then and now.
Plus it's common knowledge Cyrus was the Messiah of Isaiah and if you just read Isaiah without Christian blinders you will see Israel is Isaiahs suffering servant and the two are distinct.
Maybe you want Jesus to be the suffering servant and 2000 years of theology passed down told you he was. In the age of independent Bible scholarship it is well known Isaiah was not talking about Jesus.
It does sound like it, until you really study it out from a non "let's verify my beliefs" point of view.
At which point it is clear Cyrus WAS that Messiah, Israel WAS the suffering servant.
I have heard Christians say whenever the servant was spoken of favorably it's Jesus and negatively, Israel.
So they know who the servant and Messiah of Isaiah are but use the repeat prophecies theory to justify it applying to two people in separate generations.
Yet it fails the test of logic at all points. Nobody in Babylon in the time of Isaiah knew who the Messiah would be in the first century and certainly didn't think he was to suffer to save Israel.
The Star prophecy was THE Messianic prophecy of the first centuries BC to AD according to Josephus and the DSS both.
Not the suffering servant description, which is not really even a prophecy but a poetic description of the exile.
Also Isaiah doesn't predict a virgin birth in The Great Isaiah Scroll, that was only in Greek and probably an interpolation as we have nothing old enough to prove it was an honest error buy the translators who were not the 70 translators of the Torah/Pentateuch.
SethZaddik
Active Member
Hmm. No free rides, just free gifts from the shedding of innocent blood that accomplished nothing, can accomplish nothing, unless you follow Paul and NOT Jesus (PBUH)?
Because God does not need to shed innocent blood to redeem mankind and does require faith and works.
"Senless man (Paul), do you need to be told, Faith without works is dead?
"
No freebies is right, his death doesn't atone for sin, it's a mockery of Yom Kippur in reality.
SethZaddik
Active Member
Actually, I never said Islam caused the fall of Rome but Catholicism itself, and no, Rome fell around 600AD, 400 was a generation removed from Constantine and they were thriving at the time.
So it actually does line up chronologically, the rise of Islam and the fall of the Roman Empire.
400AD is when you think Rome fell?
Yikes are you off by a couple centuries.
Sonny
Active Member
The Messiah was a Jewish person. I don't think Cyrus was Jewish. Since the Bible states, categorically, that the Jewish/Hebrew people are God's 'special' and 'chosen' people then it stands to reason that God would not send or allow a foreigner to be His suffering servant Messiah.
SethZaddik
Active Member
How many people did Joshua kill?
Paul?
And were you there? I don't think so. Mohammed fought in wars but wasn't cruel and the Quran states People of the Book (Xtians, Jews and Sabaeans) do not have to convert and have nothing to fear on Judgement Day.
Meaning they didn't have to convert, so I don't think he killed any Jews for non conversion.
You obviously just don't like Islam is all.
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SethZaddik
Active Member
Cyrus is CALLED the Messiah or Annointed of God and no, did not have to be Jewish, they didn't have Jews then, they had Israelites or Hebrews and Judah was one tribe.
Also Judaism owes a lot to Cyrus and it is they who dubbed him Messiah.
Ask one right now if David and Cyrus were Messiahs or Annointed of God, both were and you will be told yes, told that one Messiah was not the only Messiah and that being Jewish was not a prerequisite for redeeming Israel from captivity.
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Sonny
Active Member
I noticed you didn't comment on the post of Mohammad's personally slaughtering hundreds of Jews (and who knows how many others). Why is it ok for you to comment, relentlessly, about how Jesus or Israel isn't the Messiah but nothing about the cruelties of Islam's founder. Care to elaborate as to why? Truth goes both ways.
SethZaddik
Active Member
By all means keep drilling me about things you have no knowledge of like the fall of Rome and when it happened and when I correct you try again with more erroneous notions born out of a lack of study.
SethZaddik
Active Member
Sonny
Active Member
It was Jesus who said He would be killed first then Paul, Peter and others. The blood of Jesus, since He is God incarnate, is perfect. As such, He was the only one who could buy mankind back from their mad-dash to serve Satan thru their sins. God became a man and died once for all of mankind. Jesus fulfills Isaiah and other OT books/Prophets.
So why did Mohammad kill so many people, if that is not, as you said, what God needs/wants his servants to do. Please, do reply to this.
Maybe not in what you believe but it does in what Christians believe. And it stands to reason that God would only send His servants and His Messiah to the Jewish people (God's 'chosen' people) in order to convince and convict them to come back to Him. But, they wouldn't so Paul went to the Gentiles, which is predicted in the OT and fulfilled in the NT. Plus, the Bible has about 2,000 predictive prophecies that have been fulfilled. The Koran has... how many prophecies? And how many came true? Splitting the moon, as everyone knows, is impossible- to Science and imo.
SethZaddik
Active Member
I know because Christians never did any killing right?
Paul was an unrepentant mass murderer.
"Saint" Constantine, never, no. The bestower of State power on Christianity as the only legal religion never harmed a soul.
Inquisition, Crusades, endless persecution is the history of Christianity but I mentioned a good Sunnah and all you can do is express vindictive hatred about things you know nothing about.
Like how unlike the NT, the Quran does not make being a Muslim a prerequisite for going to Heaven as long as you worshipped the One God of Scripture of the Middle East.
Yet everyone who doesn't "accept Jesus as God" goes to hell, even though he didn't say he was God, and anyone who is not Christian goes to hell regardless of righteousness.
Yes, clearly Christianity is perfect and innocent and never persecuted anyone and everyone for millenia.
Learn your own religion before you try to put down mine.
"Do not think that I came to bring peace, but a sword. "
Jesus said that, not Mohammed.
Maybe he WAS that sword.
Mohammed was not a Jewish enemy my friend, they were very hospitable in reality to Jews (Muslims) and Mohammed didn't kill 900 for keeping their religion. He had enough disciples.
Sonny
Active Member
He took God's Promise Land for Israel and its God. He didn't kill (or, murder) for no reason.
Paul was a murderer in God's eyes even tho he had permission from the church leaders.
Were you?
Ok. But you need to do some more research into Mohammad/Islam, imo. You are either misleading others here or you don't know much about your own religion. I'm not sure which but it is one of the two.
Muhammads atrocity against the Qurayza Jews
Also,
did mohammad kill 900 jews - Bing
There is no reason to not believe those who have done the research. If, however, you can prove otherwise I will change my stance.
Not that at all. Has nothing to do with Islam or Mohammad, just the ffacts or reality. I could say the same of you toward the Jews/Christianity. But I don't for the sake of honest discussions both ways- which you haven't done, I think.
Also, you have, obviously, not studied as much as you assert. The way I see it is the history of Mohammad/Islam is rife with the needless killing others.
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