The Christianity vs Judaism thread, a theological discussion.

[firedragon]

Considering the Tanakh which records the genesis, the beginning of everything we know as creation has probably the most dominant number of books we now call THE BIBLE. Whatever the Bible you use, the New Testament is the latter addition with at least 27 books from Matthew to Revelations. If we analyse from the Christian perspective God is a part of a trinity which some theologians define as always defined in the Tanakh as well along with the citing of the word Elohim which is the plural form Christians claim has the vacuum for a plural thus grooming a theology of the trinity. Yet Judaism has always defined God as a singular entity.

This thread is borne by the recent discussions on the topic. If you take Maimonides he defines God as a singular entity. He is formless, one person, not two, or more. Yet Christian theology defines a Godhead which is three. The same essence Godhead exists in three persons. Reading through Maimonides and maybe his writing a guide for the perplexed he definitely defies all notions of the three or the trinity. Beginning from his thesis of Zelem or the Gods image in Genesis which man was made of it is only too evident that he is absolutely against any kind of anthromorphisation of God. In this OP I will refrain from using the Tetragrammaton because I really don't know what usage offends those of the Jewish faith. Nevertheless, though this is the same book we are talking about there is a huge divide in the Jewish theology vs the Christian theology.

Though Christians adopt the Tanakh as the Old Testament and claim that it contains the trinity in it, the Jews will obviously defy that. If the Jewish faith is correct in interpreting their scripture with God being a single entity, then how did the Christians get the whole thing wrong? If the Christian theology is right in interpreting it as signs of the trinity how did the Jews get it wrong for thousands of years before the advent of the trinity?

 

[`mud]

A testament vs. a testament...
I think Moses is rolling over in the sand !

But Jesus is in heaven, with `God`...for a while.

Again Moses...what have you done !

 

[Nimos]

Though Christians adopt the Tanakh as the Old Testament and claim that it contains the trinity in it, the Jews will obviously defy that. If the Jewish faith is correct in interpreting their scripture with God being a single entity, then how did the Christians get the whole thing wrong? If the Christian theology is right in interpreting it as signs of the trinity how did the Jews get it wrong for thousands of years before the advent of the trinity?

Being an atheist, I think I can be unbiased... at least to some degree, since it doesn't really matter to me who should be right or wrong

When I started reading the bible knowing pretty much nothing about it, except all the basic stuff that everyone knows, like Moses, Noa, Adam and Eve etc. I personally never got the impression that we were talking about a trinity of anything.

It is not a message that is in any way obvious in the bible, however there are tons of examples that points towards Jesus seeing God as his "superior" and therefore not as an equal.

Jesus want people to follow the will of his father... If they were equal, why say it like that?

Even if we take the Gospel of John, which seem to be the one that most Christians jump to when they have to explain the holy trinity... it's not really obvious that this support it either.

John 3:31-36
31 - The one who comes from above is superior to everything. The one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is superior to everything.
32 - He testifies about what he has seen and heard, yet no one accepts his testimony.
33 - The person who has accepted his testimony has acknowledged that God is truthful.
34 - The one whom God sent speaks the words of God, because God does not give the Spirit in limited measure to him.
35 - The Father loves the Son and has put everything in his hands.
36 - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

If John knew that God would send himself, then his writings are awfully confusing. Because if someone sends someone else, you would never assume that they meant themself. The same goes with the "Father loves the Son"? Also in (36) if you disobey the Son, then the wrath of God will get you, if it was the one and same, it is not very clearly written.

Even Jesus seems unable to explain it, if it is the case. Since he constantly talk about the Father as being someone else.

And in my opinion, you don't really find any good support for the trinity in any of the gospels, compared to how much you can find that speaks against it. Pretty much all passages where Jesus speaks or refer to God, becomes very weird and cringed, I think.

In regards to the Jews, and to be fair to them God had told them what the new Messiah would do and Jesus didn't do any of it as far as I know.

But to be fair against both parties, God is not exactly good at marketing and keeping people up to date with what he wants them to believe, so don't really think it's fair to blame the Christians or the Jews, if one of them got it wrong.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This thread is borne by the recent discussions on the topic. If you take Maimonides he defines God as a singular entity. He is formless, one person, not two, or more. Yet Christian theology defines a Godhead which is three.

This is true except for non-trinitarian Christians.

Reading through Maimonides and maybe his writing a guide for the perplexed he definitely defies all notions of the three or the trinity. Beginning from his thesis of Zelem or the Gods image in Genesis which man was made of it is only too evident that ...

See here.

Though Christians adopt the Tanakh as the Old Testament and claim that it contains the trinity in it, the Jews will obviously defy that. If the Jewish faith is correct in interpreting their scripture with God being a single entity, then how did the Christians get the whole thing wrong? If the Christian theology is right in interpreting it as signs of the trinity how did the Jews get it wrong for thousands of years before the advent of the trinity?

This will almost inevitably devolve into a Christian-centric discussion on the meaning of the trinity. RF has already hosted a fair number of such discussions. As for myself, if Christians claim to be monotheists, I will take them at their word.

 

[firedragon]

Being an atheist, I think I can be unbiased... at least to some degree, since it doesn't really matter to me who should be right or wrong

When I started reading the bible knowing pretty much nothing about it, except all the basic stuff that everyone knows, like Moses, Noa, Adam and Eve etc. I personally never got the impression that we were talking about a trinity of anything.

It is not a message that is in any way obvious in the bible, however there are tons of examples that points towards Jesus seeing God as his "superior" and therefore not as an equal.

Jesus want people to follow the will of his father... If they were equal, why say it like that?

Even if we take the Gospel of John, which seem to be the one that most Christians jump to when they have to explain the holy trinity... it's not really obvious that this support it either.

John 3:31-36
31 - The one who comes from above is superior to everything. The one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is superior to everything.
32 - He testifies about what he has seen and heard, yet no one accepts his testimony.
33 - The person who has accepted his testimony has acknowledged that God is truthful.
34 - The one whom God sent speaks the words of God, because God does not give the Spirit in limited measure to him.
35 - The Father loves the Son and has put everything in his hands.
36 - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

If John knew that God would send himself, then his writings are awfully confusing. Because if someone sends someone else, you would never assume that they meant themself. The same goes with the "Father loves the Son"? Also in (36) if you disobey the Son, then the wrath of God will get you, if it was the one and same, it is not very clearly written.

Even Jesus seems unable to explain it, if it is the case. Since he constantly talk about the Father as being someone else.

And in my opinion, you don't really find any good support for the trinity in any of the gospels, compared to how much you can find that speaks against it. Pretty much all passages where Jesus speaks or refer to God, becomes very weird and cringed, I think.

In regards to the Jews, and to be fair to them God had told them what the new Messiah would do and Jesus didn't do any of it as far as I know.

But to be fair against both parties, God is not exactly good at marketing and keeping people up to date with what he wants them to believe, so don't really think it's fair to blame the Christians or the Jews, if one of them got it wrong.

Well, lets say a person from none of these two faiths takes up these questions some of them would say "both are wrong". Also, some of the atheists who take up this question would say "both are bogus". Knowing that as an atheist you would not believe in anytihng of this sort, I really appreciate your answer mate. Thanks.

 

[Terry Sampson]

If the Jewish faith is correct in interpreting their scripture with God being a single entity, then how did the Christians get the whole thing wrong? If the Christian theology is right in interpreting it as signs of the trinity how did the Jews get it wrong for thousands of years before the advent of the trinity?

Ahhh, neat! A "let's watch Jews and Christians fight" thread. I don't think I've ever seen one of those before.

To make sure that I understand the OP's question correctly, I'll try to restate it here:

• "How did two faith-communities start with the same Scriptures and reach radically different conclusions?"

Am I close?

 

[firedragon]

Ahhh, neat! A "let's watch Jews and Christians fight" thread. I don't think I've ever seen one of those before.

To make sure that I understand the OP's question correctly, I'll try to restate it here:

• "How did two faith-communities start with the same Scriptures and reach radically different conclusions?"

Am I close?

Very.

 

[1213]

...If the Jewish faith is correct in interpreting their scripture with God being a single entity, then how did the Christians get the whole thing wrong? ...

I think that is a good question, especially if we notice that Jesus and Paul says there is only one God.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

I think the problems comes from the idea that according to the Bible, God can dwell in people. According to the Bible, God dwells in Jesus and also the disciples of Jesus.

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16

For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,
Colossians 2:9

Also, that Jesus is the image of God, can be understood wrongly.

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Colossians 1:14

I believe some people hijacked Christianity and used those scriptures to add the doctrine of trinity and replace the one and only true God. There has also been people who have prevented people to hear what is really said in the Bible so that it would be difficult to anyone to see clearly. And on the other hand, there has been also Jews who hate Jesus and don’t want to hear him, probably because they were afraid of losing their high position. All this combined has led to current situation in which people are basically arguing over straw-man Jesus and the whole conflict between Jews and Christians (Christian originally a disciple of Jesus) is artificial.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Very.

Great! Thanks for the confirmation.

First order of business: There's a common myth which is sure to add wood to the fire in any conversation about "how did we end up here". The myth? That God copyrighted the Scriptures in question with a "For Jewish use only" in small print on the first page.

What to do about the myth?

Personally, I ignore it as often as I can. When I'm not allowed to ignore it, I stop talking, ... because the myth is a conversation-stopper. Period.

God knows, I wish Jesus hadn't been born a Jew, but the fact is: I believe he was, and I'm stuck with that. It's just one more of those mysteries that I don't get to understand in this world.

 

[Terry Sampson]

there has been also Jews who hate Jesus and don’t want to hear him, probably because they were afraid of losing their high position.

"Losing their high position?" ROFLMAO!!!

 

[LightofTruth]

Considering the Tanakh which records the genesis, the beginning of everything we know as creation has probably the most dominant number of books we now call THE BIBLE. Whatever the Bible you use, the New Testament is the latter addition with at least 27 books from Matthew to Revelations. If we analyse from the Christian perspective God is a part of a trinity which some theologians define as always defined in the Tanakh as well along with the citing of the word Elohim which is the plural form Christians claim has the vacuum for a plural thus grooming a theology of the trinity. Yet Judaism has always defined God as a singular entity.

This thread is borne by the recent discussions on the topic. If you take Maimonides he defines God as a singular entity. He is formless, one person, not two, or more. Yet Christian theology defines a Godhead which is three. The same essence Godhead exists in three persons. Reading through Maimonides and maybe his writing a guide for the perplexed he definitely defies all notions of the three or the trinity. Beginning from his thesis of Zelem or the Gods image in Genesis which man was made of it is only too evident that he is absolutely against any kind of anthromorphisation of God. In this OP I will refrain from using the Tetragrammaton because I really don't know what usage offends those of the Jewish faith. Nevertheless, though this is the same book we are talking about there is a huge divide in the Jewish theology vs the Christian theology.

Though Christians adopt the Tanakh as the Old Testament and claim that it contains the trinity in it, the Jews will obviously defy that. If the Jewish faith is correct in interpreting their scripture with God being a single entity, then how did the Christians get the whole thing wrong? If the Christian theology is right in interpreting it as signs of the trinity how did the Jews get it wrong for thousands of years before the advent of the trinity?

The scripture does not say that Jesus is the eternal son of God. It is the idea of Trinitarians to make that claim.

The Scripture teaches that Jesus is the son of God by being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

Sons are not as old as their fathers.

uk 1:30 And the messenger said to her, 'Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God;
Luk 1:31 and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus;
Luk 1:32 he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father,
Luk 1:33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'
Luk 1:34 And Mary said unto the messenger, 'How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?'
Luk 1:35 And the messenger answering said to her, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;

 

[`mud]

It's so simple really, Moses created `God`, and Saul created `Jesus` !
The old interpretation of `God` vs. Saul's begotten son.

Now...about what woman ?

 

[firedragon]

It's so simple really, Moses created `God`, and Saul created `Jesus` !
The old interpretation of `God` vs. Saul's begotten son.

Now...about what woman ?

Not really. Saul was writing about two decades after the passing of Jesus, so do you have any evidence to your claim that Saul invented Jesus?

 

[dybmh]

If the Jewish faith is correct in interpreting their scripture with God being a single entity, then how did the Christians get the whole thing wrong?

They fell in love with the story of Jesus.

If the Christian theology is right in interpreting it as signs of the trinity how did the Jews get it wrong for thousands of years before the advent of the trinity?

We aren't impressed with the miracles, nor are we seeking eternal life or the divine grace that was promised. Put simply, Jesus isn't our god.

 

[Harel13]

We aren't impressed with the miracles

I'm impressed with miracles...
But it's not evidence for truth.

 

[pearl]

Though Christians adopt the Tanakh as the Old Testament and claim that it contains the trinity in it,

There is no claim that Hebrew Scripture anywhere contains either the word trinity or any trinitarian formula. The only reference is to a 'dialogue' within God himself.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Aside from the trinitarian kerfluffle, I think a significant difference between Judaism and Christianity is a difference in emphasis. IMO, Judaism emphasizes deed over creed; Christianity generally seems the opposite.

 

[dybmh]

I'm impressed with miracles...
But it's not evidence for truth.

Bamidar (numbers) 15:39?
" ... you shall not wander after your hearts and after your eyes after which you are going astray."

Also in Luke Chapter 11, Jesus admits to using demonic forces to heal people. It's a deal breaker for me. No demonic forces should be used to perform miracles, imo. Further, I don't believe in demons; so, that also discredits the Jesus as described in the Book of Luke for me.

 

[Harel13]

Bamidar (numbers) 15:39?
" ... you shall not wander after your hearts and after your eyes after which you are going astray."

Also in Luke Chapter 11, Jesus admits to using demonic forces to heal people. It's a deal breaker for me. No demonic forces should be used to perform miracles, imo. (disclaimer: I don't beleive in demons.)

Wait...you don't believe in demons but do believe in demonic forces? *scratches head*
Anyway, I don't disagree. I just think that miracles are cool.

 

[Harel13]

deed over creed

Interesting way of putting it, and it even rhymes!