1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Christian Crusades, God be with them 1065AD > 2017AD

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by MrMrdevincamus, May 10, 2017.

  1. Flame

    Flame Mindflayer

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,107
    Ratings:
    +958
    Religion:
    Something or Other
    I agree with Metis. There are some far out professors but I've never talked or listened to any history professor worth their salt that fit what you're saying.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. MrMrdevincamus

    MrMrdevincamus Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,278
    Ratings:
    +248
    Religion:
    'Primitive Christian' Means we reject supersessionism.
    I may not be an expert on the Crusades however near east history has always held an interest for me. After becoming disillusioned with my atheistic world view I traveled and studied for over ten years eventually stealing a Theology related masters degree, and a few year later I became a Christian. Btw Wikipedia is a good resource, but I wouldn't write a thesis or desertion using information from it as an exclusive source.

    Thanks for your reply~

    : { >
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. MrMrdevincamus

    MrMrdevincamus Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,278
    Ratings:
    +248
    Religion:
    'Primitive Christian' Means we reject supersessionism.
    Tenure is worth more than all the salt in the ocean. It means if they have a bunch of it they can get by with practically anything short of murder. Man! so many pious liberal minded professors out there in Web land that love Christians and the conservative mind set etc ! I should ask for my money back!

    ; {>
     
  4. Flame

    Flame Mindflayer

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,107
    Ratings:
    +958
    Religion:
    Something or Other
    And professors on tenure have to earn it. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Nietzsche

    Nietzsche The Last Prussian
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2010
    Messages:
    6,669
    Ratings:
    +6,909
    Religion:
    Heathen King
    This seems like a very round-about way to say "I am not as well-versed in the history of the Crusades as I ought to be in order to discuss this". Let's go through what you brought up earlier;

    Forced conversions, plundering of peoples who don't believe the way they did, slaughtering non-believers...

    Yeah, sorry, that's not gonna fly here. Muslims and Christians both are equally responsible for being murderous savages to people who did not worship the way they thought they should.

    ..No. The Catholic Church used the appeal for aid by the Byzantines as a fig-leaf to seize Jerusalem from them. The Western Church had countless opportunities prior to this to intervene and aid their Eastern cousins. They didn't because they were intentionally waiting for the Seljuks to weaker the Byzantines enough that they(the Byzantines) could not fight back when the CC decided to seize the Holy Land. The Byzantines were seeking aid in Anatolia. The Papacy instead invaded the Holy Land. It was naked aggression with a half-hearted attempt to make it seem like they were coming to the rescue of their brothers in the faith.

    See the above.

    The Muslims were by no means peaceful. And it was for profit. Specifically to seize the Holy Land and use it as a base to recapture extremely lucrative trade routes. The Middle East was where goods from India and East Asia inevitably passed through before making it to Europe proper. Undoubtedly the rank-and-file of the Crusader armies thought they were on a holy mission. But the people at the top were exploiting the good will and faith of their people to increase their own wealth.

    The Byzantines withdrew their support because the Crusaders blatantly ignored where the Byzantines actually needed help.

    I cannot stress this enough; if the Crusades were what you claim they were, why did they not actually aid the Byzantines? This is no different than what happened in the Baltic with the Teutonic Order. The King of Poland asked for aid, the Teutonic Order comes in and begins seizing land from the weakened Polish kingdom and refuses to turn it back over.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,244
    Ratings:
    +11,812
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Out of curiosity, where did you travel to that impressed you one way or the other, and also what did you specialize in with your theology?
     
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,244
    Ratings:
    +11,812
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Ya, so much for the "good old days", eh?
     
  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,773
    Ratings:
    +16,839
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Pretty much always that it involved Islamic military expansion, the capturing of Jerusalem, and the West's/Church's efforts to reclaim it. Even the effects of trade between the West and East when all the trade routes were mostly controlled not just by Muslims in the sense of how Europe was Christian but heavily divided, but rather a unified Caliphate.
    Actually, they tend to be both liberal minded (with some Conservative views) and mostly Christian (with several openly stating church attendance). But even the one Marxist professor that I know is very friendly and tolerant of religion. Yes, there is at least one who isn't, but I've encouraged students to put that in their reviews and file complaints (and have done so myself). I haven't experienced it myself, or done any research, but I'm willing to wager the average college is not going to resemble UC Berkely, which sits along the California coast.
     
  9. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    9,350
    Ratings:
    +8,029
    Religion:
    none
    Why else would they think they needed to 'win back' the Holy Lands if they hadn't been conquered in the first place?

    The first lot who went over in The Peasants Crusade were certainly not elite warriors but an incompetent rabble who were easily defeated by the Turks.

    They were turned into Kingdoms under Norman and Frankish nobles though. Europe benefitted a lot from these Crusader states die to increased access to trade routes than had been diminished after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the rise of the Islamic Empires.
     
  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,773
    Ratings:
    +16,839
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    And of course there was the Children's Crusade.
     
  11. MrMrdevincamus

    MrMrdevincamus Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,278
    Ratings:
    +248
    Religion:
    'Primitive Christian' Means we reject supersessionism.
    I mentioned that because at least I was taught as was most that I see on line and speak to was claimed/suggested by academia that the crusades where little more than an expansionist war party.

    If you are talking about the the first Crusade it was created because the Pope wanted to assist the Eastern Christians against the Muslims. They won, but true to their questionable morals the crusader leadership did not return the lands won as promised, instead they in 1099 after forming the crusader states set themselves as leaders.

    Are you referencing the created the Kingdom of Jerusalem (by crusader leaders), the County of Edessa, the Principality of Antioch, and the County of Tripoli?

    Actually many of the crusades were not successful, again the history of the crusaders were not the point of te OT. Thanks for your reply though!

    ; { >
     
  12. MrMrdevincamus

    MrMrdevincamus Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,278
    Ratings:
    +248
    Religion:
    'Primitive Christian' Means we reject supersessionism.

    Cool, not I feel violated lol! I would like to sit in one of their lectures etc. That mix would be what I would consider the ideal. Maybe in another life eh? I will be honest. Those professors the and my hormones gave me a chip on my shoulder that hindered me through out my life to this day. Still have a look at the web, I am sure you are aware of the problem.

    ; {>
     
  13. MrMrdevincamus

    MrMrdevincamus Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,278
    Ratings:
    +248
    Religion:
    'Primitive Christian' Means we reject supersessionism.
    I was born a poor black child, no lol that was Steve Martins character. But I was poor. Man I cant tell you how many times Iall we had to eat was pinto beans corn bread! I had enoug of poverty so I learned a skilled trade journeyman Ironworker and by the grace of God went to work with a international company (Fluor Service Group). The company demanded travel, usually a year was the job commitment. I was going stir crazy, didn't like clubs, so I began going to school after work at first for my own reasons then as an undergrad. I took many classes I didn't really need, kind of floundering around but with no goals at first I took just enough required courses and loaded up on electives that I enjoyed. For example cosmology and the arts ie art history graphic design etc but made sure all hours were from accredited schools. I finally earned enough hours for the degrees even if it took me more than ten years! But my job paid very well. After earning the BA, I thought I would attempt a MA with some sort of astronomy/cosmology as a major area of study, but after becoming christian curious I began study of religious subjects. The official title of my degree is Master of Arts in Comparative Religion & Philosophy. I didn't think I would make it through the Philosophy courses, but I did enjoy them. I thought about going for a PhD for about a nano second, then H*** NO!!! lol. I really didn't use the MA degree, I instead became a NP owner assisting the poor in accessing entitlements etc here in Appalachia, where the need is still great.Are you sorry you asked?

    ; {>
     
    #33 MrMrdevincamus, May 11, 2017
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
  14. MrMrdevincamus

    MrMrdevincamus Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,278
    Ratings:
    +248
    Religion:
    'Primitive Christian' Means we reject supersessionism.
    If you say so, lol.

    Again (for the umphteemth time) I said I did not condone the crusaders atrocities, not at all never ever! What do I have to do to get those of you that do not read the OT etc? As for forced conversions Ummm' maybe I should have been clearer, I was referencing today's forced conversions. In other words yes christian warriors were awful but we dont have those now Islam does.

    Yes I already said that. Today the Muslim terrorists are still chopping heads off and murdering thousands of innocents in one action.

    We disagree. i have already laid out my opinion. I feel the first Crusade was a preemptive strike with side issues, like getting back assets, lol. Also it was to send a message to the citizenship that were doing something to protect them....


    I can agree with that. I am no fan of most organized religion including some christian churches. Largess creates greed and greed is a very powerful evil.

    Imagine that!

    [quoteI cannot stress this enough; if the Crusades were what you claim they were, why did they not actually aid the Byzantines? This is no different than what happened in the Baltic with the Teutonic Order. The King of Poland asked for aid, the Teutonic Order comes in and begins seizing land from the weakened Polish kingdom and refuses to turn it back over.[/QUOTE]

    Who do I say the crusaders are? I said they were not good people. I said they were evil. I said I don't condone their ways of murder rape and pillage. They looked cool, and they were the delta force for military groups of their day. As I said I believe I created some confusion about the point of this thread. It was not intentional......

    God bless me for writing so many replies, lol!

    : { ) >
     
  15. Servant_of_the_One1

    Servant_of_the_One1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,510
    Ratings:
    +705
    Religion:
    Islam
    There is still crusade. I believe Jesus will break the backs of the final crusaders because they are blasphemous.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. MrMrdevincamus

    MrMrdevincamus Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,278
    Ratings:
    +248
    Religion:
    'Primitive Christian' Means we reject supersessionism.
    I agree, but not like you may think! The apocalyptic books Revelation of John etc.tells us that three or four world powers will attack Israel in an alliance and lose two thirds of their army each in the first skirmish. Scripture references that near the time of Jesus return Christians will be beheaded for not rejecting Jesus etc. and its obvious who that scripture is pointing, the Islamic theocracies. But to get back to the return of Jesus, the big players of the last wars are China, Russia and an Islamic power. China will field a 300 million man army and march them across a dried up Euphrates to come against Israel in a coordinated attack. The bible doesn't say which Islamic state will perish with their allies so maybe all the Islamic states will be involved which I believe will lead the world to Armageddon. Jesus will return in time to save what is left of the worlds population which prophesy says will be about an eighth of today's population.

    ; {>
     
  17. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Messages:
    26,685
    Ratings:
    +9,145
    All I know about the Crusades is that the Knight's Templar were barbaric thugs and that Orlando Bloom was a hero to the people of Jerusalem.
     
  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,244
    Ratings:
    +11,812
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Not at all, so thanks for telling about about this.

    I taught a comparative religions course for two years and Christian theology for 14 years, but I don't have the educational level that you have in theology. My main area of study was in the history of early (2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries) Christianity, but my interest went into a very different theological direction over the last two plus decades.

    Take care.
     
  19. Nietzsche

    Nietzsche The Last Prussian
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2010
    Messages:
    6,669
    Ratings:
    +6,909
    Religion:
    Heathen King
    You just want to ignore what Christians are doing now in modern Africa, India, and Korea?

    They're acting no different than a number of Christian groups active in Africa.

    ...what?

    Either the Crusades were a defensive action or a pre-emptive strike. You can't have it both ways. One precludes the other.

    The majority of those in the Crusader armies were poor peasants, much like every other army of the era.
     
  20. MrMrdevincamus

    MrMrdevincamus Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,278
    Ratings:
    +248
    Religion:
    'Primitive Christian' Means we reject supersessionism.

    note to forum the following is mostly a light off topic story so if you don't like those sort of things skip it ~


    The story of the Joe Dirt effect

    I am impressed! The quality of your education was probably much better than mine because you had 'continuity' ie the common sense to stay at one school (I am guessing). Lol, compared to most others with equal 'academic credentials' I have many gaps and holes in my knowledge base due to my unorthodox methods of schooling I suppose. I get 'high anxiety' if asked to debate or speak in real time because of those holes. While I am spilling my innards' I might as well confess even my high school ed suffered due to weird 'Joe Dirt' events.

    That is due to the fact that back in the day (just out of middle school) my girl friend said I made her pregnant. I had no job skills and Uncle Sam was the only game in this town I also dropped out of high school a week into the freshman semester, lied about my age (fake IDs were cheap and ID fraud was not the crime it is today). Stayed in for the combat tour period (two years), however before AIT she divorced me while I was in basic, silly me she wasn't even pregnant! About this time I was feeling like Joe Dirt! Anyway, I aced the GED while in active service but still my lack of a good high school ed shows in my awful writing skills and other areas where didn't learn the basics. Anyway are you up for a tutoring session, I need to brush up on my English grammar, lol. And thanks for sharing Metis.

    I gotta' ask did you enjoy teaching?

    [​IMG]

    : {>
     
Loading...