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Featured The Christian Bible: Can you prove or disprove dispensational interpretation of scriptures?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 74x12, Dec 18, 2017.

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  1. Yes

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  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    @Whitestone, to go along with what you posted last, I think it would be wise for some to read a classical book about Jesus that was written centuries ago, namely Thomas Kempis' "Imitation of Christ". I think you'd find that what's written there would well fit into what you've been saying.

    The main theme of that excellent book is that Christians need to follow Jesus' example of the "law of love", namely showing love for all, compassion for all, and justice (fairness) for all. The unfortunate reality is that there are many who simply are not willing to take that "narrow path". Like with the "Goats" in the "Parable of the Sheep & Goats" in Matthew 25, they believe some things about Jesus but they simply do not believe in Jesus to the point of not having the "law of love" written on their hearts. They're aggressive, sarcastic, demeaning, thus lacking the basic compassion and love and the fairness that Jesus taught and demanded.

    IOW, to put it in very short terms, one should exemplify Jesus' love, compassion, and fairness towards all, and that's what Kempis was saying, as well as was Jesus.

    Great book, even if one is not a Christian.
     
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  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    This is basically what I meant.

    But, here is what I would change of what you said. My belief is that #3 should be the era of promise. This begins with Abraham and probably ends when Moses receives the Law. The Law would be the 4th epoch. Then your #4 would be combined with your #5 in my view anyways. I would say the tribulation and the antichrist's coming etc. would simply be the final act of the period of grace. Other than that I agree with your view of dispensations. My view is based on the idea that each dispensation is based on agreements between God and humans. So, basically God makes deals with people and this begins a dispensation. (edit: I slightly changed my mind again. See my most recent post to see what my theories are on the 7 dispensations.)

    Well, dispensations are not based on societal conditions so much as they are on covenants between God and humans. For example you had the Covenant of Moses and then the new Covenant through the blood of Jesus(Matthew 26:28).
     
    #22 74x12, Dec 21, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  3. Whitestone

    Whitestone Member

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    I forgive your mindless slander and false accusations. I love you sir, and I pray you will find Jesus someday and be transformed from such lying hateful lost soul into a man of wisdom, knowledge and understanding, and most importantly, that you will know His Love and how to show it someday in His gentle meekness. This I pray for you.

    (Mat 5:44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    (Mat 5:45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
     
  4. Whitestone

    Whitestone Member

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    NOW IS THE TIME. (not some other "date" or "dispensation" on the calendar)...

    Rom_13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
    2Co_6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
     
  5. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Have you any idea what it means, to love your enemies, how are you to love your enemies?
     
  6. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Now is the day of salvation yes. However, that doesn't mean there have not been different dispensations in the past and will be in the future. I believe the 7 days of creation are the foreshadow of the 7 ages of the world. God made everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th. This is spiritually discerned. So, when we read that God made everything in 6 days that means He completed His great work: the new Jerusalem. (The new Jerusalem is the aim and objective of all of this.) The 7th day is the final rest of God in the new Jerusalem as God said "this is my rest for ever". (Psalm 132:14) We aren't supposed to give God rest until the new Jerusalem is finished. (Isaiah 62:7) And when the Pharisees were angry at Jesus because He worked on the sabbath day He said "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." (The pharisees clearly didn't understand that it was always lawful to do the works of God, but I digress) The point here is that God continues to work as He prepares that great city that will be His rest forever and He tries every thing with fire so that only what is worthy and will withstand the purification of fire will be built on that city. When this city is finished: this is the finished creation the 7th day of rest. Right now we're only on the 6th day of creation in my opinion.

    The Light of Genesis 1:3 was a Spiritual Light. It is the Light of Christ that God made all the ages of the world in. Each day of creation was made in the Light of Genesis 1:3. The sun was only made on the 3rd day. The days of creation were not days by the sun. Every age of the world has been in and through the Light of Jesus Christ and He will shine forever in the 7th day as the Sun of righteousness with healing in His wings. In the midst of the new Jerusalem as the scripture say God will be the Light and the Lamb will be the Lamp.
     
  7. Whitestone

    Whitestone Member

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    A decent question, how pleasantly surprising, thank you, very much appreciated. Here is a partial answer to your question from your Creator;
    Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    Luk_6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
    Exo 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his *** going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.
    Exo 23:5 If thou see the *** of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.
    (Pro 25:21) If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
    (Pro 25:22) For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.
    (1Pe 3:8) Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
    (1Pe 3:9) Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
    (1Pe 3:10) For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
    (1Pe 3:11) Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
    (1Pe 3:12) For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
    (1Pe 3:13) And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
    (1Pe 3:14) But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
    (1Pe 3:15) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
    (1Pe 3:16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
    (1Pe 3:17) For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
    1Jn_2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    1Jn_4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
    1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
    1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
    1Jn_4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
    1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
    1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    Here is a good start how to move forward in Love of everyone including enemies. As sons of God, who IS Love, this will then become evident in how we think, speak and conduct ourselves toward others. May you find a Blessing in this my friend.
     
  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The seven days of creation may symbolize and foreshadow the seven ages of the world.

    These ages all begin with agreements or arrangements between God and humans.


    1. The first age is the age of innocence and this age ended when Adam and eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit of knowledge.
    2. The second age is the antediluvian age and ends with the flood of Noah.
    3. The third age is the age of Noah and God made a covenant with them and they saw the rainbow.
    4. The fourth age is the age of the patriarchs and began in Abraham's time.
    5. The fifth age was the age of the Law. This age began when Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt.
    6. The sixth is the age of grace and this began through Jesus Christ advent into the world and His work upon the cross.
    7. The seventh age is the final rest of God. The finished creation of God; when all things are reconciled to God and everything in the world is peaceful and at rest. The end of evil being observed and the eternal supremacy of goodness established.

    1. Day one saw the separation of Light from darkness. And in the first age; Adam and Eve transgressed and were separated from the tree of Life and the garden of delight. An angel with a flaming sword guarded the way back. Satan also transgressed and became a being of darkness rather than an angel of Light.
    2. Day two would represent the antediluvian age. On day two God separated the waters on earth from the waters above. This would represent the problem God dealt with in those days when the "sons of God" took wives and had children by the daughters of man. The mingling of heavenly and earthly seed. So, God separated at this time, punishing the angels that had sinned this way and destroying their depraved children in the flood.
    3. The third day God caused the seas to come together so the dry land would appear. This would represent the age of Noah when God saved him and his family and gave him a Covenant with the rainbow. This age would continue until Abraham's time.
    4. The fourth day was when God made the stars, the sun and the moon. This would represent the age of the patriarchs beginning with Abraham and ending in Moses' day. There are many references to stars and luminaries in the Bible when dealing with the patriarchs. For example, God promises them that their descendants would be as many as the stars of heaven. And Joseph saw a dream and himself and his brothers were the stars and his mother the moon, his father(Jacob) the sun.
    5. Fifth day represents the age of the Law. Which was begun in Moses' time when God gave the children of Israel the Law. The importance of the Law is incalculable because it established a way for Grace to come. On the fifth day God made all the fishes and the birds. This would represent the separation between the Hebrews and the gentiles under the Law. In those days you were either fish or fowl. Jesus did away with the separation through the cross when He came.
    6. On the sixth day God made humans. This day would represent the age of grace. God spoke through the ages to the Son of man Jesus when He said Let us make man in Our image. This was predestining the adoption of sons and daughters through Jesus Christ the first begotten Son of God. It is only through Him that we are born anew as children of God and restored into creatures after His own image. Jesus Christ being made the express image of God and being God manifest in human form. The 1000 year reign of Christ on earth is the closing act of this age because Jesus must sit on the right hand until all His enemies are made His footstool. This does not occur until the very end when death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
    7. The seventh day represents God's completed work. God will only rest when His work is done and that will be when the new Jerusalem is completed. We know this because He has chosen the new Jerusalem as His resting place forever. This new Jerusalem is the bride of Christ and is comprised of all the saints both in heaven and earth. Angels and humans together. Jesus Christ came to make them all one body in Himself.
     
  9. Whitestone

    Whitestone Member

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    Thank you for your input 74. Yes, there was the dispensation prior to the appearance of Christ. And yes we are given the spiritual concepts of salvation in the Genesis creation story. You are correct in understanding the spiritual aspects of that message rather than being stuck on them as an account of a natural creation, such as what the "creationists" and "evolutionists" like to argue about.
    Since the Time of Christ, we are Now in the eternal dispensation of the Kingdom of God. We are NOW of that New Jerusalem, Mt Zion. (Heb 12;22, Gal 4;6 etc) This isn't a future thing for us, except only for those who haven't yet accepted Christ and entered the City, having been "born out of Her"... which is when we are born of the water and the word, aka "born from above" in Faithfulness. So we preach the Gospel to "them" to whom this isn't yet fulfilled.
    That time is Now.
    This Gospel message of Salvation goes to the ends of the earth, then the "end". From year 33 to now 2017, this is the Dispensation of the Kingdom of God. There are No more "dispensations". Our Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom without end.
    Also, you might find this interesting... Scripturally, we are now in the "eighth day", which is the first Day of the New Creation, which began as we see recorded in Acts 2. That Day doesn't ever end but is the Day of the Lord and is Eternal. You will find great revelation in what this Eighth Day entails as it begins to unfold from. Just get out your concordance and look up the word "eight" or "eighth" and get ready for some revelation joy :) (It will also give you great insight into the meaning of the "cutting off of the flesh" aka "circumcion of the heart")

    I have entered into His Rest. It certainly isn't something to put off until some other futuristic dispensational concept such as what is taught in modern dispensational theology. Heb 4:10, I have ceased from my carnal labors. Christ is with me and shall never leave nor forsake me. Nothing will ever change that.
    The only "work" that I now partake in is "being about our Father's business"... as Christ Works in us doing the work of the Father in producing Sons of God by the preaching of the Gospel and the bringing of the "Fatherless and the Widows" (the picture of Christ's Wife Israel, after she murdered Him), back to Her Husband, showing "her" that He is risen from the dead and to Marry Him and to produce fruit, children of God. (Rom 7:4 John 16:21, James)

    This Gospel is pretty much preached unto the ends of the earth globally already, except for a few places here and there in deep China or Africa maybe, and the "end", whatever the cause of the lake of fire is... (asteroid, nuclear bombs, CME, or even Betelgeuce going supernova...) whatever the cause, is THE END. It could happen tomorrow, who knows? No one knows the Day or the hour of their passing from this world into the Joy of the Kingdom. Nor does anyone but God know when this planet becomes that lake of fire. (But the time is short, that is quite evident so it seems.) But one thing for sure, nothing "else" will happen other than the Gospel being preached unto the ends of the earth by men such as you and me, and then is the End, when it can then finally be said, "All Israel is saved".
    (Rom 11)...until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
    1Co_15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    (1Co 15:26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    2Co_5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    2Co_5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    This Gospel message is so Wonderful, thank you for your insights, I hope you enjoyed mine too 74. (Neh 8:18, 2 Chron 29:17, Eze 43;27, Gen 17;10-12, Rom 2;29, Act 2;20 2Cor 1;14 etc)

    Peace my friend.
     
    #29 Whitestone, Dec 21, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  10. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    So maybe with everything that you given.
    Then explain in John 2:13-15,
    "And the Jews passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting; And when he had made a whip of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and oxen; and poured out the changers money, and overthrew the tables"

    It sure doesn't sound like Jesus being all loving there.
    Jesus being our example, showing to love your enemies, is to correct them in the error of their way.

    Your way of thinking will only get you hurt or killed,
    Jesus way of thinking is to correct your enemies in the error of the their way.

    To love your enemies is to correct them in the error of their way, to deliver them from condemnation. Delivering their souls from hell.
    But your way is to lay down and let your enemies walk all over you. That is not loving your enemies. That's you showing disrespect to your enemies.

    You want your enemies to show you Respect. Your enemies will not have Respect if they can walk on you.
    If an enemy comes at me, I will pick up a big club and knock them in the head, to show them have Respect and you will get Respect back.
    That I am not their walk on.

    Christ Jesus made a whip and over three tables, showing them they had no Respect for the temple. But Christ Jesus showed them to have Respect.
    Christ Jesus didn't walk over to them and threw his arms around them, No
    Jesus took a whip to them, That's how you love your enemies, by showing them to have Respect and not a walk on.

    Even Abraham went out against those kings, to show them the error of their way.
    Abraham didn't run out throwing his arms around them, No
    Abraham went out and corrected them in the error of their way, No more than Jesus did to those in the temple, taking a Whip to them, to correct them in the error of their way.

    That's how you love your enemies, Correct them in the erorr of their way.
    You show your enemies to have Respect and they will get Respect back.
     
    #30 Faithofchristian, Dec 21, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  11. Whitestone

    Whitestone Member

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    Wow, "faithofchristian", a lot of vitriol directed at Jesus...

    Your mistake is thinking that "Love" doesn't include chastising and rebuking. If you were a father, you would know that. In fact, according to scriptures, a father who doesn't chastise and rebuke his children does not love them. Did you have an abusive father FoC? That can often account for such a skewed view and personal opinion of what "Love" and "respect" means to you. I can see why you would attempt to hold Jesus' feet to the flames here, how interesting...

    In any case, Thank you for asking the meaning of John 2:13-15. Here is why He did that;

    (Joh 2:16) And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
    .......(the answer).........
    (Joh 2:17) And his disciples remembered THAT IT WAS WRITTEN, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

    which comes from....

    (Psa 69:9) For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
    (Psa 119:139) My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words.

    I recommend that you keep personal opinions at bay, and instead, put forth the Word of God instead of carnal ideas. That way you can rest in this...

    (Rom 3:4) ...yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
     
  12. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    You've said some compelling things. And I agree with you about the significance of numbers in general and especially the number 8. If you multiply 74x12 then you'll see how I like that number. Jesus rose on the 1st of the week. Jesus is the beginning of God's new creation.

    However, I do believe in a future dispensation. This current dispensation is the time of the Son of man(Jesus who is sitting on the right hand until all His enemies are put under His feet.) This will continue until every enemy of mankind is destroyed through the power of Jesus who although He is born a human yet existed beforehand as God and has received all power in heaven and earth in human form so that He could save us all. The future dispensation is when Jesus has put down all enemies and delivers up the kingdom to the Father. (1 Cor. 15:24) It's true the saints will receive an everlasting dominion and Jesus will be at their head. Yet, this marks an end of all evil(finally) and a complete rest of not just us but God also who will have finished all His work and will have finally prepared Himself a house and a place worthy of His eternal rest. (Isaiah 66:1) Right now those who are in Christ receive rest, but it's only the "earnest of their inheritance" (Eph. 1:14; Isaiah 28:11-12) In the future when free from terrestrial bodies they'll have the full inheritance.
     
  13. Whitestone

    Whitestone Member

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    Yes, this does happen, but quite specifically it happens like as described in the following verse, "each man in his own order"... Each Christian, when he puts off this body of flesh, experiences the final meaning of "Jesus put down all enemies". The enemy is death. When each man dies in his flesh, yet whose soul is preserved in Christ as even now, then is fulfilled "death is swallowed up in victory". For you and me, that is future. For many who have gone before us, that is past, and they are now in Glory. This is juxtaposed against the theology teaching of a futuristic one time world wide rapture or "dispensation" of a new age on this planet. Scriptures has nothing like that story. Instead, we enter into Glory. That is the Scriptural message.
    If we were to say that when each man enters into Glory, and that is a "new dispensation", it sure would be for him. But not for us who haven't yet put off the flesh.
    The Doctrine of dispensationalism was created a couple centuries ago (I can give details if asked) when the idea of the universal rapture idea of the church came out. The doctrine was created in the direct face of a new huge push of previously ignored Jewish groups, who united and began proselytizing ideas into Christianity that they were going to be restored to the land, and continue the OT lifestyle in the middle east on old "Holy Land", and convince the Christians of their place on the planet. It has worked well. They even put in place Scofield with his Reference Bible that directed everyone into "dispensationalism". This new doctrine took off like wild fire, now the churches teach it. I used to teach it. It is a hard doctrine to break out of when raised with a Bible in one hand and a hard cover book of dispensational theology in the other. So for me, dispensationalism is a bad word. It was a teaching of death, by which I had no idea the Gospel meaning since it contorted it so much. That's why I give some energy into this topic here. Anyways, thanks for reading, if you did. Hope it gives thought :) Peace in Christ Jesus
     
  14. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Alright. This is just the kind of response I've been looking for. Because I knew that not everyone agreed with dispensationalism. But, I wasn't sure what they believed. So I wanted to hear other sides.

    The problem I have with what you said is what about the resurrection? I believe in a physical resurrection of the body. I believe in the meantime souls who die in Christ go to a place of rest but they're still waiting for their resurrection which will occur when the last trumpet sounds. Please explain how you view the resurrection.
     
  15. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    It's not as much why Jesus did it, The fact is that Jesus showed them, that he is not going to lay down and let them think that they can do as they please in his Father's House.
    By this Jesus being our example, we too, are not to let people think they can do as they please unto christians,
    In other words, if a person comes to do me bodily harm or anything, then I will pick up a big club and knock them in head, letting them know, I am not your push over nor your walk on. You want Respect than you show Respect.
    This is what Jesus was doing exactly, To show them, have Respect then you will receive Respect back. By No means, did Jesus walk in throwing his arms around them. Heck No, Jesus made a whip and chase them out. That's how you love your enemies, You Correct them in the error of their way. That you are not their walk on nor a rug that they can wipe their feet on.

    To love your enemies, does not means, you go to them throwing your arms around them.. begging for their forgiveness.

    To love your enemies, Means if your enemies comes at you or anyone that is of your house hold, you will defend them.

    To love your enemies, is to correct then in the error of their way. if your enemies come at you to do you bodily harm, you pick up a big club and knock them up side their head, Correcting them in the error of their way.

    Let's for say, you saw your enemy about to walk off a cliff, would let them go or would try to show them in the error of their way.

    To try to show them in the error of their way, that is love your enemies.

    How are you to love your enemies, if your letting them walk on you, all your doing is showing them, that you have No Respect for yourself.
    But if you stand up to them, showing them that you are not their walk on. This is showing Respect for yourself and to them and they are to have Respect for you and in return you show them you have Respect for them.

    Respect deserves Respect back, it's not a one sided Respect. That it goes both ways.
     
    #35 Faithofchristian, Dec 22, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  16. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    While each dispensation is based on a Covenant, which is essential an agreement betwen God and man, what God requires of man from dispensation to dispensaton changes. So each new Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)requires some different, something new of man. So while each dispensation is not based on societal conditions, it is based on God's Revelation that inevitably effects a change in societal conditions. This is certainly true for New Covenant and New teachings from God that Moses and Jesus brought. The same principle in all likelihood applies to Adam, Abraham, and Noah. So the change in societal conditions could be a sign of the end of one dispensation and the beginning of another.
     
  17. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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