The Chosen: III.

[John D. Brey]

Yet you have yet to explain why the American citizenship laws are reasonable and logical and the Jewish identity laws are unreasonable and illogical. You keep dodging this point. As though if you keep claiming that Jews are the only illogical entities in the universe, that will somehow make the statement true, regardless whether you actually explain it or not.

German identity means you're associated in some logical or rational way to the land of Germany. Jewish identity does not mean you're associated with the land of Palestine since not only are most modern Jews not really associated with Palestine, but, more importantly, Israel became a nation before they even possessed a national plot of land to relate to.

Germans didn't become German and then take over a plot of land in the middle of western Europe and name it after the name of their identity. Israel did. That's a fundamental distinction. Germans are named after the land. Israel is named after the people. That's a fundamental distinction.

In the original thread that became the original essay (btw I just posted the addendum to that essay from the recent dialogues here) I noted a parallel relationship between Jewish monotheism and Jewish identity itself. Jewish monotheism is aniconic, and meontological, meaning there's no material representation of the Jewish God; and that descriptions of his essence must essentially be negative (i.e., describing him not by what he is, but what he is not). This meontological-negativity is symbolized for instance by writing "God" as "G-d," implying that even the label cannot materialize any real essence of the Jewish G-d.

Since Jewish identity is tied up in the Jewish God, and is not really a garden variety identity like German, or French, it can be shown that there's a "spiritual kernel" to Jewish identity that's not logical, or rational, but rather, meontological, just like the identity of the Jewish God whose identity is what gives legitimacy to Jewish identity.


John

 

[John D. Brey]

I don't find Jewish identity hard to understand. I guess, according to you, I must be missing something, because I'm not walking around all day, baffled at my own Jewishness. Go figure.

There is a real, legitimate, distinction between a contrived identity, like say a man claiming to be a unicorn from Venus, and a logical, or scientific identity, like a person who calls themselves "German" because they were born in Germany, or a person who calls himself "black" because of the color of his skin.

To say Jews get to determine their identity is closer to the former than the latter since presumably you'd already have to be a Jew to get to make a determination on what that means? How did the Jew who determines what it is to be Jewish make that determination before he was Jewish? And if he makes it after he's Jewish, how did he become Jewish until he determined what that is?

In other words, did non-Jews determine what a Jew would be, and then be that, or were they already Jewish, such that they determined what Jewish means because they were Jewish? If the latter, how did they become Jewish?

Do you see the problem? You can't have it both ways. Either non-Jewish persons made up an identity, and then applied it to themselves, or else people who were a particular identity went about describing what that identity is. How did the latter become what that is before they knew what it is?

Which are you?



John

 

[Onoma]

" Israel " seems to be a given name ( Eblaite and Ugaritic ) that predates what we consider Biblical Israel, do you have any theories as to why it was specifically chosen ?

 

[Harel13]

I pity your nonsensical obsession. And one thread leads to another, and the cycle doesn't end as you claim to search for one form of logic while rejecting another that's simply not to your taste.

Jewish identity does not mean you're associated with the land of Palestine since not only are most modern Jews not really associated with Palestine, but, more importantly, Israel became a nation before they even possessed a national plot of land to relate to.

Newsflash: the only time Jews were called Palestinians was during the British Mandate of Palestine. Prior to that, Jews were not affiliated with the term "Palestine". Palestine is a term derived from the Biblical Philistines and popularized by the Romans in order to bring about people like yourself: individuals and nations who do not see any connection between those called "Jews" and the land called "Palestine".

The term "Jew" was ultimately derived from Hebrew Yehudi יהודי and the similar Aramaic Yehudai יהודאי which both mean: Judean or person of Judea, which is where the people who came back from the Babylonian Exile originally settled. However, the term itself is actually older, as we know that Mordechai, for example, was called "HaYehudi" (hence the translation: Mordecai the Jew).

The land of Judea is a portion of a land at times called Eretz Yisrael or the land of Israel and at times Canaan. Judea is called so because that is where the Tribe of Judah of the People of Israel chose to settle.

Israel became a nation before they even possessed a national plot of land to relate to.

Yet the land is believed to have been bequeathed to them by God. Even those that deny the divine origins of the Bible agree that there is sufficient historical and archeological evidence in favor of the Israelites long having lived in Israel/Canaan. More so in the case of Bible believers, who agree that the land was promised to the chosen descendants of Abraham, back in the time of Abraham. That was prior to the creation of the people.

If we open up certain portions of the Torah, we'll find descriptions of the richness and beauty of the land, of the divine division of the land between the tribes, and several land-based commandments.

In other words, Jewish identity is very much associated with the land of Israel. It seems to me that you've fallen prey to the old Roman semantics game.

Note: though you have chosen for some odd reason to move my reply to a brand-new thread, you have still yet to actually explain why American citizenship laws make sense. Frankly, this is getting ridiculous and tiring.

 

[John D. Brey]

Which are you?

Say you're the former: you're part of a people who determined what their identity would be and applied it to themselves. Now say a dude is born to a Jewish mother but, seeing people persecute Jews, he decides to opt out of the identity. But they say you can't. We've determined that once your born to one of us you can't leave our contrived identity since part of its contrivance is that everyone born to a Jewish mother is Jewish automatically and forever.

Can you see someone using a four-letter word as he leaves never to return knowing these people are . . . . .?

Now say that you're the latter: you're part of a people who know they're Jewish and know the identity isn't contrived or made up by people and then applied to the people. As such you know you didn't just choose an identity and then fit yourself into the choices made about it; something about the identity is inherent to you in a way that's not merely selected by those in the in crowd: something about the identity is innate.

This latter situation being the case, the fact that some element of the innate quality of the identity passes in utero means the innate-ness is biological, genetic; other wise you're mixing the first situation (where the identity is contrived in the heads of the in crowd) with the second situation where there's something innate about the identity.

A man with a black mother has a good chance of being black because of who his mother is. It's based on science. It's innate. But if black people said anyone woman could convert to being a black mother and then all of her maternal line for the rest of eternity will be black, regardless of their skin color, this strange state of affair would be akin to the Jewish description of Jewish identity.

My position is someone peculiar, like Jewish identity itself.

I'm in the enviable, and unenviable position of making logical sense of the weirdness of Jewish identity but having no one to explain it to since non-Jews are ambivalent about it and Jews, like yourself, claim they see nothing peculiar about the logic of their identity that would need to be explained.

Poor ole Casandra ain't got nuttin on me.



John

 

[Harel13]

To say Jews get to determine their identity is closer to the former than the latter since presumably you'd already have to be a Jew to get to make a determination on what that means? How did the Jew who determines what it is to be Jewish make that determination before he was Jewish? And if he makes it after he's Jewish, how did he become Jewish until he determined what that is?

So who gets to determine identity? You? Why? What makes you special? And if that's the case, can I identify you as a dalek and stork mutant? Fair is fair, after all.

How did the Jew who determines what it is to be Jewish make that determination before he was Jewish? And if he makes it after he's Jewish, how did he become Jewish until he determined what that is?

According to the Bible, we were called Hebrews in the beginning, for a number of reasons. One of them was because we were considered descendants of Ever. Historically and Biblically, the rest of Ever's descendants eventually assimilated into other nations, such as the Aramites and Chaldeans. In the end, only the children of Jacob/Israel were left with the Hebrew mantle. When we left Egypt, that morphed into Israelites. Ta-da.

 

[John D. Brey]

" Israel " seems to be a given name ( Eblaite and Ugaritic ) that predates what we consider Biblical Israel, do you have any theories as to why it was specifically chosen ?

The name was given to Jacob after he strove with God in the WWF bout of the century: "In this corner is God . . . in this corner is Jacob." The Hebrew word, ישראל can be interpreted to mean one who strives . . . or wrestles with . . . God.

An orthodox Christian might say Jacob failed to pin God down, and thus lost the match; but that if only he'd had a hammer nails (or even Masoretic points) he could have managed to pin God down and win God's vineyard as a just reward.



John

 

[Onoma]

The name was given to Jacob after he strove with God in the WWF bout of the century: "In this corner is God . . . in this corner is Jacob."

The Hebrew word, ישראל can be interpreted to mean one who strives . . . or wrestles with . . . God.


John

Of course, of course, I knew this already, but thank you for explaining

This isn't what I was asking though

" Israel " is a name that was in common use long before what we consider Biblical Israel to have come about, so do you have any theories as to why it was chosen for the Biblical Israel when any number of other names could have been chosen ?

 

[John D. Brey]

I
Note: though you have chosen for some odd reason to move my reply to a brand-new thread, you have still yet to actually explain why American citizenship laws make sense. Frankly, this is getting ridiculous and tiring.

. . . Everything I wanted from the last thread I already published as an essay. But in the two essays I didn't even write one sentence about the double-entendre intended by the title, the חשן.

This is the third go. And I hope to finally get to the topic of the first two essays: the חשן.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

This isn't what I was asking though

" Israel " is a name that was in common use long before what we consider Biblical Israel to have come about, so do you have any theories as to why it was chosen for the Biblical Israel when any number of other names could have been chosen ?

Gotcha . . . great question.

It boils down to primogeniture. And like much else associated with Israel there are paradoxes and mysteries galore.

If you're interested in more than just a pat answer I've actually noted some opening questions concerning this primogeniture.



John

 

[Harel13]

. . . Everything I wanted from the last thread I already published as an essay. But in the two essays I didn't even write one sentence about the title double-entendre intended by the title, the חשן.

This is the third go. And I hope to finally get to the topic of the first two essays: the חשן.



John

I'm [insert some sort of emotion] for you.






So in other words, you fail at properly carrying the conversation/discussion. You simply skip over whatever you are unable to unaswer. SARCASTIC SHKOYECH to you, sir. Slow clap.
Kindly do not continue quoting my posts and starting new threads for no reason if you are unable to wrap up each point I bring up. Good night.

 

[Onoma]

Gotcha . . . great question.

It boils down to primogeniture. And like much else associated with Israel there are paradoxes and mysteries galore.

If you're interested in more than just a pat answer I've actually noted some opening questions concerning this primogeniture.



John

Interesting, thanks for taking the time to put it together

Just from a cursory glance, it made me think of how a symbol for " water " is also associated with " sperm / progeny " in cuneiform texts

 

[John D. Brey]

Interesting, thanks for taking the time to put it together

Just from a cursory glance, it made me think of how a symbol for " water " is also associated with " sperm / progeny " in cuneiform texts

. . . Do you have any citation for that? It's very interesting in line with another study I'm doing making a distinction between the gender of blood versus water. Scripture seems to associate semen with water, which, ironically, is feminine, while blood is masculine.

In brit milah, the blood, symbolically, takes the place of semen. The true firstborn of prelapse Adam, who wasn't male, is conceived from the blood of circumcision in place of semen.



John

 

[dybmh]

Which are you?

My Vote? It's more complicated than I think you're making it.

Being Jewsh, practicing Judaism, and having a Jewish Identity are all all three different things. Each of these has a connection to the physical land of Israel, the territory. That's why a connection to the land is univeral among Jews regardless where they are on the spectrum of being Jewish, and/or practicing Judaism, and/or having a Jewish Identity.

also Happy Birthday.

 

[John D. Brey]

Being Jewsh, practicing Judaism, and having a Jewish Identity are all all three different things.

. . . Which one of the three things gets passed on by having a Jewish mother? And how did the first Jewish mother get hers if not through a Jewish mother? Was there a rabbi back then to convert her? And how did he get his Jewish identity? Who converted him?


John

 

[John D. Brey]

You don't need to be Jewish to be good.

. . . Nevertheless it's a lot easier to be good by birth than to have to convince a rabbi of it before he lets you into the commonwealth of the good.

I was going to upgrade my wife through conversion so all our offspring through her would be the good guys, Jews, card carrying Jews, forever and ever. But then I realized that if my sons didn't marry a Jewish woman none of their offspring would be Jewish ever, so I didn't want there to be a war some day between my Jewish offspring and my non-Jewish offspring. . . And I didn't want my daughter's offspring lording their inborn goodness over my son's offspring, many of whom (my son's offspring) will no doubt not be good since they ain't born that way like my daughter's offspring.

I asked a rabbi if, should I change my mind after the conversion, my wife's womb could be excommunicated or something, to eradicate its ability to produce Jews forever and ever time without end?

He said no. Once its Jewish, its infused with Jewishness that can't be washed out even using Oxyclean. When I told her this it scared the Jesus H Christ out of her (so to say). . . The next Saturday she partook of the Eucharist to get it back in her.

To make a long story short, our offspring all ended up being born-losers. You know, Christians. But there's a happy ending anyway. Since they weren't born Jewish they all got born-again.



John

 

[dybmh]

. . . Which one of the three things gets passed on by having a Jewish mother? And how did the first Jewish mother get hers if not through a Jewish mother? Was there a rabbi back then to convert her? And how did he get his Jewish identity? Who converted him?


John

I was talking about the current state of affairs

In general, the Jewish mother passes on all 3. To be more detailed, I would need specifics.

 

[John D. Brey]

In general, the Jewish mother passes on all 3. To be more detailed, I would need specifics.

. . . One of the three was practicing Judaism. I'm not sure all who have a Jewish mother practice Judaism? Unless of course, just having a Jewish mother means whatever you do is a Jewish practice. Which actually makes sense since whatever a Jew does is obviously Jewish practice since a Jew is doing it.


John

 

[Harel13]

Nevertheless it's a lot easier to be good by birth than to have to convince a rabbi of it before he lets you into the commonwealth of the good.

Sad, sad complete misunderstanding of the idea. You. Don't. Need. To. Be. Jewish. To. Be. Good. And I'll add another word: Ever. Being non-Jewish does not automatically deny you a spot in heaven. It doesn't make you evil. It's what you choose to do with your life, and you do not need to convert. By the Noahides there's a saying: "Keep the seven, go to heaven". That's true. But you'll find that in the Talmud there are examples of righteous non-Jews that received heaven, without keeping those commandments. Or as was put in the Talmud: "There is one who acquires his share in the World-to-Come in one moment".
Unlike Christians, we do not believe that all of mankind are inherently evil, so much so that we are hopeless until we have put our faith in some god.

And, here's a little secret, between you and me: if you're an evil Jew, you don't go to heaven. Shocker, I know, right? Who'da thunk?

 

[Harel13]

I asked a rabbi if, should I change my mind after the conversion, my wife's womb could be excommunicated or something, to eradicate its ability to produce Jews forever and ever time without end?

He said no. Once its Jewish, its infused with Jewishness that can't be washed out even using Oxyclean. When I told her this it scared the Jesus H Christ out of her (so to say). . . The next Saturday she partook of the Eucharist to get it back in her.

I'm surprised the rabbi had any patience for you; it sounds like you view Judaism as some sort of investment in the stock market at best, or something that both purifies and defiles you at the same time at worst.
Thank you for sharing that wonderful story about lack of commitment; it's like those people at weddings who get up, toast the couple and say: "Hey, marriage isn't forever. If you ever change your mind, you can always back out and find a different spouse."