The Chain of Infallibility

[buddhist]

For followers of revealed, faith-based religions (on the world stage, this generally refers to the Abrahamic religions) how do you handle the issue of infallibility?

What I mean is this: if your god was indeed perfect, and intended for his followers to correctly understand his perfect message, then he must have preserved a chain of infallibility which extends from god himself to the follower.

E.g. A "perfect" god must ensure that his chosen prophet is infallible; the prophet's writings (the holy books) must also be infallible; those who preserve those books must also be infallible; those who translates those books must also be infallible; those who expound the content of those books must also be infallible; those who read the books or the translations (the disciple) must also be infallible.

If there is any failure in that chain, does it not inherently prove that the imagined originator (the deity) is imperfect and fallible?

(It seems the Roman Catholic Church understood this problem from early on, and determined that infallibility proceeds through the Church, the Popes and Councils, the Bishops and their Priests - the authorized preservers, translators, and expounders of the "Message", etc.)

 

[bobhikes]

For most religions, catholic as well the fallibility is in the follower. The follower may know the truth but decide it is to hard to follow, or interpret the truth for their own means or even deny the truth. Of course this only works for a God that allows free will, which most Abrahamic religions do.

 

[Tumah]

For followers of revealed, faith-based religions (on the world stage, this generally refers to the Abrahamic religions) how do you handle the issue of infallibility?

What I mean is this: if your god was indeed perfect, and intended for his followers to correctly understand his perfect message, then he must have preserved a chain of infallibility which extends from god himself to the follower.

E.g. A "perfect" god must ensure that his chosen prophet is infallible; the prophet's writings (the holy books) must also be infallible; those who preserve those books must also be infallible; those who translates those books must also be infallible; those who expound the content of those books must also be infallible; those who read the books or the translations (the disciple) must also be infallible.

If there is any failure in that chain, does it not inherently prove that the imagined originator (the deity) is imperfect and fallible?

(It seems the Roman Catholic Church understood this problem from early on, and determined that infallibility proceeds through the Church, the Popes and Councils, the Bishops and their Priests - the authorized preservers, translators, and expounders of the "Message", etc.)

I don't really see why the transmitter and not the transmission itself needs to be infallible.
.
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Now if you had said carburetor it would make more sense.
I couldn't help myself.

 

[BilliardsBall]

For followers of revealed, faith-based religions (on the world stage, this generally refers to the Abrahamic religions) how do you handle the issue of infallibility?

What I mean is this: if your god was indeed perfect, and intended for his followers to correctly understand his perfect message, then he must have preserved a chain of infallibility which extends from god himself to the follower.

E.g. A "perfect" god must ensure that his chosen prophet is infallible; the prophet's writings (the holy books) must also be infallible; those who preserve those books must also be infallible; those who translates those books must also be infallible; those who expound the content of those books must also be infallible; those who read the books or the translations (the disciple) must also be infallible.

If there is any failure in that chain, does it not inherently prove that the imagined originator (the deity) is imperfect and fallible?

(It seems the Roman Catholic Church understood this problem from early on, and determined that infallibility proceeds through the Church, the Popes and Councils, the Bishops and their Priests - the authorized preservers, translators, and expounders of the "Message", etc.)

The Bible has more to say here. It talks not only about God's infallible messages but the tendency of people to pervert revealed truth. Anyone or any church that wishes to know correct doctrine is told exactly how to unearth the same in the scriptures themselves.

 

[buddhist]

The Bible has more to say here. It talks not only about God's infallible messages but the tendency of people to pervert revealed truth. Anyone or any church that wishes to know correct doctrine is told exactly how to unearth the same in the scriptures themselves.

How do you know that your Bible has been preserved infallibly, so that its directions on how to know correct doctrine is sure to be true?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Only God is infallible. No man or church is infallible, regardless of what they claim.

 

[BilliardsBall]

How do you know that your Bible has been preserved infallibly, so that its directions on how to know correct doctrine is sure to be true?

Great question. How can we verify claims the Bible makes about itself as to its infallibility?

1. Fulfilled prophecy. We can see hundreds, even thousands, of SPECIFIC examples where history reveals the Bible foretold the future. Our past history verifies the predictive prophecy of the Bible, showing Jesus wrote the scriptures.

2. Jesus's character as revealed in the scriptures shows Him the greatest person ever, and authoritative for us.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Only God is infallible. No man or church is infallible, regardless of what they claim.

But you left the Bible out of your statement. The Bible is infallible, so if a church 100% interprets the Bible accurately...

 

[buddhist]

Great question. How can we verify claims the Bible makes about itself as to its infallibility?

1. Fulfilled prophecy. We can see hundreds, even thousands, of SPECIFIC examples where history reveals the Bible foretold the future. Our past history verifies the predictive prophecy of the Bible, showing Jesus wrote the scriptures.

2. Jesus's character as revealed in the scriptures shows Him the greatest person ever, and authoritative for us.

How have you personally verified that the Bible's prophecies were indeed written in the ancient past, and personally verified their fulfillment years/centuries later? I don't know for myself either of these things, e.g. I have no clue if someone from, say the year 1600, wrote the Bible himself, and wove in his tales about prophecies, and also their fulfillment, and the Jesus character.

 

[Shiranui117]

But you left the Bible out of your statement. The Bible is infallible, so if a church 100% interprets the Bible accurately...

Yet how can we guarantee that a church is interpreting the Bible 100% accurately? Who determines what is and isn't an accurate interpretation? Thousands of different sects and millions of different people have stuck to nothing but the Bible, but come up with wildly different interpretations--Calvinism vs. Arminianism, hierarchical Church vs invisible church, free will vs. predestination, Trinity vs. Unitarianism, Jesus being divine and human vs. simply human, the Holy Spirit being a person or not, baptism being done with water or not, baptism having an effect or not... The list goes on. With everybody using nothing but the Bible to ground their positions, how do we tell who's doing it right? What objective measure can we use? What is the measuring stick that leaves no room for ambiguity?

 

[Hawkins]

For followers of revealed, faith-based religions (on the world stage, this generally refers to the Abrahamic religions) how do you handle the issue of infallibility?

What I mean is this: if your god was indeed perfect, and intended for his followers to correctly understand his perfect message, then he must have preserved a chain of infallibility which extends from god himself to the follower.

E.g. A "perfect" god must ensure that his chosen prophet is infallible; the prophet's writings (the holy books) must also be infallible; those who preserve those books must also be infallible; those who translates those books must also be infallible; those who expound the content of those books must also be infallible; those who read the books or the translations (the disciple) must also be infallible.

If there is any failure in that chain, does it not inherently prove that the imagined originator (the deity) is imperfect and fallible?

(It seems the Roman Catholic Church understood this problem from early on, and determined that infallibility proceeds through the Church, the Popes and Councils, the Bishops and their Priests - the authorized preservers, translators, and expounders of the "Message", etc.)

The greatness of God is that He doesn't even need to do what you specified here to get His predefined Elect to be saved. It is so because you as a human (or buddhist?) has a twisted concept of what perfectness is.

Perfectness is for the Bible to act as a valid human account of witnessing for His Elect to be saved while those not of His Elect to be removed. Perfectness is how well He sticks to His plan made before the creation. You don't even know what His plan is in details and yet you think that you can judge how perfect He is in pursuing what He has planned for.

 

[rusra02]

For followers of revealed, faith-based religions (on the world stage, this generally refers to the Abrahamic religions) how do you handle the issue of infallibility?

What I mean is this: if your god was indeed perfect, and intended for his followers to correctly understand his perfect message, then he must have preserved a chain of infallibility which extends from god himself to the follower.

E.g. A "perfect" god must ensure that his chosen prophet is infallible; the prophet's writings (the holy books) must also be infallible; those who preserve those books must also be infallible; those who translates those books must also be infallible; those who expound the content of those books must also be infallible; those who read the books or the translations (the disciple) must also be infallible.

If there is any failure in that chain, does it not inherently prove that the imagined originator (the deity) is imperfect and fallible?

(It seems the Roman Catholic Church understood this problem from early on, and determined that infallibility proceeds through the Church, the Popes and Councils, the Bishops and their Priests - the authorized preservers, translators, and expounders of the "Message", etc.)

I agree that the true God must be infallible and that his Word must also be the truth. I do not agree that translators, teachers, or readers must be infallible or unerring. Why would you think this would be necessary?

 

[buddhist]

The greatness of God is that He doesn't even need to do what you specified here to get His predefined Elect to be saved. It is so because you as a human (or buddhist?) has a twisted concept of what perfectness is.

Perfectness is for the Bible to act as a valid human account of witnessing for His Elect to be saved while those not of His Elect to be removed. Perfectness is how well He sticks to His plan made before the creation. You don't even know what His plan is in details and yet you think that you can judge how perfect He is in pursuing what He has planned for.

How have you correctly judged his plan then (e.g. with your post)? Do you claim perfection?

 

[buddhist]

I agree that the true God must be infallible and that his Word must also be the truth. I do not agree that translators, teachers, or readers must be infallible or unerring. Why would you think this would be necessary?

How do you know you're reading the truth when you're reading a translation?

 

[rusra02]

How do you know you're reading the truth when you're reading a translation?

In the case of the Bible, the thousands of existing manuscripts can be cross-checked to find any translation errors that may have occurred. To mention just one example of the accuracy of Bible manuscripts, the Dead Sea scroll of Isaiah, compared to a manuscript written a thousand years later, was found to contain only minor differences, mostly in spelling.

 

[buddhist]

In the case of the Bible, the thousands of existing manuscripts can be cross-checked to find any translation errors that may have occurred. To mention just one example of the accuracy of Bible manuscripts, the Dead Sea scroll of Isaiah, compared to a manuscript written a thousand years later, was found to contain only minor differences, mostly in spelling.

Translation is an extremely difficult process. A word in Hebrew or Greek may have variant meanings which are not brought out in a corresponding English word, for example. How do you know that the translators for your preferred translation chose the correct words, transferring the exact meaning perfectly 100% of the time?

 

[metis]

Logically, it would take infallible evidence perceived by infallible people to conclude that fallibility actually exists. Therefore, to say that X is "infallible" is just based on blind faith.

 

[Hawkins]

How have you correctly judged his plan then (e.g. with your post)? Do you claim perfection?

We believe God is perfect. That's our faith. Or otherwise why should He be called God. We have direct eye-witnesses to testify with their lives for the message that we need faith to be saved. That's why we choose to believe.

 

[buddhist]

We believe God is perfect. That's our faith. Or otherwise why should He be called God. We have direct eye-witnesses to testify with their lives for the message that we need faith to be saved. That's why we choose to believe.

What must you believe in?

 

[rusra02]

Translation is an extremely difficult process. A word in Hebrew or Greek may have variant meanings which are not brought out in a corresponding English word, for example. How do you know that the translators for your preferred translation chose the correct words, transferring the exact meaning perfectly 100% of the time?

I think the thoughtful translators note such variant meanings in their translations. And cross checking other translations can clarify difficult passages. The fact that the Bible has survived and thrived despite repeated attacks on it proves to me that "the word of our God endures forever." (Isaiah 40:8)