1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Central Revelation of Christianity: God IS the "apple"

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by sealchan, Nov 30, 2021.

  1. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    4,741
    Ratings:
    +2,100
    Religion:
    Christian
    I just had a revelation which I realized was also a remembering and renewed understanding of something I read awhile back. it lead me to the idea that the central revelation of Christianity is that God Is one of us, that we ARE created in the image of God and that God IS the "apple".

    The apple is the creation of consciousness which is merely the process of creation responsible for the growth and emergence of our Universe out of the unknown and probably unknowable background and into something known. When we ate, as the story goes, the "fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", we were creating consciousness of ourselves by virtue of employing the ability to evaluate our reality and determine if it was good or evil. Good or evil is defined from the perspective of the knower as what is evidently helpful or harmful to our instinctual needs and our ability to have the efforts of our labor persist and not go to waste. This is in harmony with the notion of murder as being the highest form of crime. As such our being, our individual existence and value, is of primary spiritual importance.

    The God of Christianity (and probably Judaism) is the God of our self-valuation. If we know we exist and are valuable to the Universe or its Creator, then we can derive a deep satisfaction in our psyches from that. The world may teach us otherwise with its dangers and struggles. We can even die knowing that within our life experience is that which is most precious to that being who is most powerful and knowing.

    God is the knowing being that created this reality but He/She/It is only perfect from our limited perspective. We ought to realize that at God's layer of reality God is limited as a knower just as we are. Each layer of reality arises from something and develops into a system of parts interacting in ways that a discriminating consciousness can model in terms of a set of complimentary oppositional qualities. This is God's out as far as being judged as a moral factor. God can argue with us regarding whether He/She/It has acted morally given Its restraints that it could not even begin to tell us about. This is why God's Answer to Job takes on the form of a boasting of His power. Its sounds like a bully. It actually is logically the best explanation God can provide to us given the circumstances. As such we must secretly realize that we are together WITH God in the difficulties of creating a just Universe, a just Creation. If we spoil God's creation He really only has Himself to blame in the end. If we encourage God and make willing sacrifices without resentment, then we reassure God.

    In my study of the God Dream (The God Dream) or the waking encounter with God it has become clear to me that such an encounter is all about the individual experience of the value of themselves. By opening up to the fear of annihilation in the presence of the supreme annihilator, we suddenly experience a compensatory deep valuation of ourselves, a release from the world's de-valuation. Abraham's story tells of Abram/Abraham's own direct encounter with God. Abraham argued with God about the destruction of Sodom. Abraham became willing to sacrifice his son by God's apparent will only to be prevented from doing so by God's last minute command. God became a man in order to demonstrate His love for man. But it also SHOULD demonstrate that God gets it because God is also under the same limitations at HIS level of reality. We can, in this way, empathize with God for His struggles even with ourselves and still respect Him given His unknowable limitations.

    In the case of Jesus, Jesus IS the name of God and also our personal spiritual name through which we are given salvation. This is because our own names can be seen as divorced from our nature. Before we even knew ourselves we were already given a name. But to receive a new name from a presence or being perceived to be as powerful and knowing as God is to be given salvation and a renewed sense of one's own personal value even as one realizes one's own humble power. Great power does not, in the end, make you more valuable. Psychologically being given a new name after one has become conscious and is ready to take on the burden of being a member of society, is itself a great blessing. Through that name one is given value and acceptance and a sense of ultimate belonging which is equivalent to everyone else's on some level. Jesus is a projection of that self-naming at a collective level. If we experience our value through God as a separate factor from our experience of God's creation then we have the name Jesus as our salvation. We might almost call ourselves Jesus or at least in the privacy of our prayers submit ourselves fully to His will even while we understand we must personally take up the responsibility to suffer in following Him. I believe the Beatitudes speak directly to this (Matthew 5: 1-12). We can also, of course, see Jesus as God telling us that He fundamentally gets the nature of our suffering...he tells us by showing us the life of Jesus.

    From a logical point of view it is undeterminable by us as to whether God is limited. As Star Trek clearly has demonstrated through the medium of speculative fiction, an "advanced enough" alien species can be an equivalent to God. There would be no way to know otherwise. But also in Star Trek we find that that "advanced enough" creature or creatures are in the end subjected to the same moral or social or physical limitations as the rest of us. What we are left with is a God who can truly accept our gifts of love and compassion and not a God that doesn't really need us. This makes God truly a personal being as opposed to an impersonal force or principle.

    In all of the above, I have expressed things in terms of Judeo-Christian myth as presented in the Bible. I believe that this myth, as do many other myths, points to an objective psychological reality. Our psyches are the result of the evolution of our species into a creature that can witness and model reality far better and much more cooperatively than any other species. Our reality is a thing which we can hold within our minds and contemplate. As such it's character is as much the result of our languaging of reality as it is the nature of the experience of an un-languaged reality. (See Genesis 2:19-20) Our ability to utter clear vowels and consonants into a precise and expansive array of words and sentences allowed us to become masters over the world we inhabit. The Word then, is literally our greatest power with respect to other species. And later with the development of written language, the Word became capable of recording precise data and persisting that across generations. This is the foundation of scientific knowledge which can be grown and passed on and forward.

    But one of the fundamental problems with consciousness is its own lack of objective validation. We receive individual validation from our society. We can receive validation from our mastery of physical reality. But when we struggle to do either through inclination or circumstance, we may receive validation from the nature of our own psyche which can create compensatory images and experiences that will re-balance use when we are severely out of balance. The sorts of experiences and images and myths that arise from the compensatory action of the psyche are captured in the myths of cultures across our planet. Each arises from the objective quality of our human psyche and as such has validity to the knower that sees and experiences its blessing.

    Any and all sincere comments welcome.
     
  2. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    4,741
    Ratings:
    +2,100
    Religion:
    Christian
    I just re-read this and realized it is a bit scrambled here and there and has some misspellings...

    God is the "apple" again, to be succinct, means that just as God created the Universe, we created our own self-awareness. We learned by doing, by acting, and so did God. As such God's knowledge is limited, by analogy, within God's own layer of reality whereas we cannot see this. We only know that God's creation is amoral and we are to try to make of it something moral. That is why God tells us (in our stories about God) to be moral, to have faith in Him, etc. God really does need us and not in some trivial, because He says so, sort of way. It goes at a much deeper level in that God is limited just as we are and we all need to provide each other that sense of support and validation. At least that is the mythic narrative we have from Judaism and Christianity.

    If Jesus is "the true vine" and "the bread of life", then God is the apple of our knowledge/consciousness and we partake of that just as He partakes of it.
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph FREEDOM OF SPEECH

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2022
    Messages:
    541
    Ratings:
    +47
    The forbidden by God fruit is not an apple or any literal fruit. The forbidden by God fruit is believing a lie is the truth and everyone that thinks a serpent talked to a human eat that fruit.
     
  4. rational experiences

    rational experiences Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    10,369
    Ratings:
    +619
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    If earth owns O two poles its body functions as the apples shape.

    I didn't by think science...science no longer uses that idea anymore they infer a sun to earth angel type movement as if wings moved behind earth by sun blasts.

    Like a type of man's body.

    So maybe men of science took a snake massed body layer of gods heaven and destroyed the apple that you were told not to change

    As the man god theist thinker mother womb maths.

    So Adam and Eve is a man's own maths cause by science. How Apple origin changed into sin.

    So when you see Satan angel clouds snaking burning falling mass just know man of science is trying to lose Satan's form now.

    As CH gases that arise were hot gases spirit first.
     
  5. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    4,741
    Ratings:
    +2,100
    Religion:
    Christian
    So you believe that believing that the story of the Serpent literally talked to Eve or that this story literally happened is believing a lie and that the very story is, as a literal truth, a forbidden act by God?
     
  6. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    4,741
    Ratings:
    +2,100
    Religion:
    Christian
    I'm afraid your language is inscrutable to me. I believe you are being sincere, but unfortunately I cannot make out what you are saying.

    My apologies.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph FREEDOM OF SPEECH

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2022
    Messages:
    541
    Ratings:
    +47
    Understand the Bible is about 2 religions, the one God sent Jesus to destroy with truth and the Hebrew/Jewish one that was based on what man wanted not what God wanted.
    The first humans on Earth were not Hebrew/Jews. Their names were not Adam and Eve. The creation outline God offers ends in Genesis 2/4, Finished.
    Then we are shown the foundation of the Jewish religion that the Father of the Lie, Abraham created, naming his God, Lord God so Abraham can be the Lord of it.
    The Adam and Eve story is fiction, never actually happened, but it is a parable that does give important information about the future.
     
    #7 Triumph, Mar 28, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2022
  8. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    4,741
    Ratings:
    +2,100
    Religion:
    Christian
    I think it is highly arrogant to dismiss Judaism as a lesser religion.

    I do agree that the story of Adam and Eve is fictional.
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph FREEDOM OF SPEECH

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2022
    Messages:
    541
    Ratings:
    +47
    Jews created a religion that according to prophecy will destroy them in a final war on Earth. The enemies of Israel will not win either as all nations are going to fall. The End of Days World War will be fought by 7 thermonuclear empowered nations with weapons so powerful man, our specie, can not survive the results of using them regardless of the beliefs people have or where they live.
    The results after WW3 is extinction of Homo Sapiens. Everyone that fights in that war believes they will win having the high moral ground approved by their God, or thinking they have the most advanced technical weapons but that is not what happens.
    ONE man is the cause of the near future extinction of all people on Earth and that man's name is Abraham. Knowing this truth, Jesus called Abraham the Devil. But people will not believe that is what happens even though the signs given us in scripture are happening now.

    Revelation 1:20
    The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."
    A church is just an assembly of people with the same beliefs. The mystery here is the 7 churches represent the 7 nuclear empowered nations that will fight.
    The right hand represents the sword hand, the military. A fighter jet launching missiles, the coals of fire under their wings looks like a golden candlestick from the glow of the resulting fire.
    Ezekiel 1:13
    As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning."
    The living creatures are attack helicopters in a battle firing missiles and bullets. Ezekiel is shown a WW3 battle.
    Ezekiel 10:21
    Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings.'
    " the blades are called wings, the pilot is under the blades and blades/wings are also described as straight. They rise the creature= helicopter up. Man controls the wings with his hands.
    Helmets are counted as a face, the joint strike helmet looks like an ox/calf. A white helmet with the breathing tube looks like an eagle in profile.
     
  10. rational experiences

    rational experiences Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    10,369
    Ratings:
    +619
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    I learnt about man brothers agreed sciences.

    I see Abraham in vision as an old man wearing heavy robes who taught scientific evils.

    As a human teacher.

    I know that as earths CH gases cooled clouds gain stories visions.

    Da Vinci proved he was seeing future man's science designs...the clouds gave you spirit visions you then invent build manifest evil.

    Inventor man. Where you envisioned design by cloud stories.

    As dinosaur images are in clouds how else did vision own the memories of what a dinosaur looked like?

    From cloud through microbial life in water we see vision.

    The destroyer bible teaching. Is a man like any other man. You can't depict him said the described warning as he seems just like an average man.

    Men hence studied codes of men's name as Galileo scientist destroyer name equalled lie gaol.

    Before gaoling he was just a man wasn't he?

    He was gaoled by thesis about the sun and his design theorems. Known dangerous.

    As sun year 12 cycles star calculus scientists themed in science on earth why life was destroyed sacrificed as stars fell.

    Was why the earth cycling the sun theories banned.

    The earth was taught depicted as central to life existing.

    I learnt I saw. One of Christ life sacrifice symbols is the saw as I see I saw past tense.
     
  11. rational experiences

    rational experiences Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    10,369
    Ratings:
    +619
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    The theme science is with God earth first and not about life in any theme.

    Status science theoried by men.

    Earth all life destroyed once by Atlantis pyramid science was in America only.

    Life first origins only came out onto one continent.

    Giant pyramid.

    Just men. Just garden.

    First scientists as we had come direct out from eternal where spirit life had always existed.

    They tried to take the light of the heavens and store it in earths crystalline rivers. So immaculate. Heavens would be returned.

    They wanted body release to go back into the eternal. Light bound them to life.

    Nearly destroyed earth. Men know and state conscious memory I built tectonic earthquake I am tectonic carpenter builder.

    Rivers of hell melt was first pyramid builders cause. How earth seams broke open.

    Earth inherited tectonic fault.

    Men knew if earth gets hit by large asteroid earth tectonics could open.

    No use gathering seeds to replant earth by theme garden eviction ground burning earth increasing desert size. As you already knew and chose.

    I wonder at humans mentality proving their awareness knows that humans were and are destroying life on earth.

    As humans who claim I will take refuge underground and survive. As they did in Moses attack.

    Stephen hawkings said start looking for a new planet earth to live on.

    If you aren't yet scared enough to stop evil blasting of your brother then how much does it take to scare an evil mind into change?

    Why do you think a secret spiritual organisation was established once?

    An event of a destructive human mind was the way of the scientist human.

    It was why a world communal wise gathering was implemented as council before. As humans brothers sisters needed to stop evil leadership the choice 0AD teaching.
     
  12. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    10,100
    Ratings:
    +2,111
    Religion:
    Christian
    Sounds like so-called progressive Christianity, or what I like to call total nonsense.
    It's always about us. The Bible says the opposite.
     
  13. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    4,741
    Ratings:
    +2,100
    Religion:
    Christian
    That sounds like the sort of black and white thinking that doesn't stand up to rational discourse. Why read the Bible if the reader isn't engaging in transforming their personal understanding? This is not the same as believing what you want to believe.

    Your insults suggest a closed mind and a defensive attitude.
     
  14. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    10,100
    Ratings:
    +2,111
    Religion:
    Christian
    It suggests that I read what is actually written and don't try to change it to suit my wants.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph FREEDOM OF SPEECH

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2022
    Messages:
    541
    Ratings:
    +47
    God never accepted any blood sacrifices and Abraham lies saying he speaks with God. Abraham does not care if his son dies a horrible death being burned alive as long as Abraham does not die. Abraham loves himself above all people even his family. God had to send an angel to prevent the murder of Abraham's son because Abraham wanted to impress his military that he was willing just like the other Pagan leaders to sacrifice a human to their non existing God..
    The well of Jacob has the words of Abraham in it and it is dry without the water of Life. God is the God of the living that love one another not the God of the Dead
    that worship their imaginary Gods willing to burn innocent children alive and dash infants against rocks.
     
Loading...