The Central Paradox of All Faiths

[LuisDantas]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster...I would love to hear stories of this being over a nice plate of spaghetti with meatballs and garlic bread. I hope the movie comes out soon...

Is It like Godzilla only with sauce?

Pretty much. But the doctrine is better developed and the cookbook is miles ahead.

 

[sealchan]

There's Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman, Brahman without attributes and Brahman with attributes, respectively. Saguna Brahman becomes what we think of as "God". Nirguna Brahman is the basis of existence, actually it is existence (saccidananda: being consciousness, bliss)..

This ties into another dimension of why I talk about the Name.

We all personally have a name and that name is also a key to our sense of existence...for better or for worse. In this way we are known by others and through names we know others. It is both deeply personal and coldly objective. It depends on who is using the name and how they are using it.

So again the question of our own meaning, our own being...do we even have a soul to bother fretting about?...is central not just to the Name of Names and where we stand, but for our own Name. To know the Name of the Other is to take a step toward ensuring that our Name is deeply associated to that which the Name addresses.

Ego-Self
Nara-Narayana
Atman-Brahman
Child-Parent
Instance-Archetype

So the understanding of our purist self and a name is wrapped up in our understanding of what the Name is.

 

[Vinayaka]

In Hindu terms, it would be Brahma (is Adi-Brahma a thing?) if he had a touch of narcisism and were very adverse to expression and delegation, to the point of Shiva and Vishnu not existing as such.

Brahman, not Brahma, and to further it, Parabrahman.

 

[sealchan]

I've heard it put that the name(s) of God is/are non-different from God, which is why we chant the name(s)... the name is God. I'm not entirely sure I understand it; I try not to think too hard lest I get a brain-melting headache.

Well, then you must be doing it right. It IS a brain-melting headache to think about it rationally. But like with hot sauce, you can get progressively de-sensitized I suppose.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I've had an audacious thought that naturally wants me to let it loose on the Internet...

The central revelation of all religion is the understanding and preservation of the meaning and value of the Name and that to which it refers. Meaning arises from the Name being good and valuable and in some way belonging to its knower. The meaning of the Name must not be sullied by associations with what is bad or of no value. In truth the Name pervades all things in such a way that the right mental effort yields value in all things THROUGH the Name.

The Name is knowable but not finally reducible to any other specific physical object or mental idea. It is, in this sense, immune to critique or corruption even as it is ephemeral in the extreme. Those who literalize or otherwise try to anchor the subject of the Name to an idea or physical reality create the potential for the corruption of that name. At the same time it requires a continuous diligence in our hearts and minds not to want to corrupt the Name in exactly this way.

Anyway any sincere thoughts welcome.

None of this makes any sense to me, I'm afraid.

 

[LuisDantas]

In retrospect, I may have been a bit flippant when talking about Hindu concepts previously in this thread.

I apologize, and promise to make an effort to do better in the future.

 

[sealchan]

I don't understand. Why is this a paradox?

Ah...when I started writing the post I got interrupted. The paradox barely squeaked in there at the end.

The paradox is that religion holds the Name and what it represents sacred but it corrupts it with every loving effort to do so. And worshipping the Name or revering it while it makes us small, it also fills us with meaning...making us "big" again.

 

[sealchan]

None of this makes any sense to me, I'm afraid.

Perhaps you have chosen to leave all things paradoxical and mystical alone.

I appreciate the effort nonetheless.

 

[Harel13]

but it corrupts it with every loving effort to do so

How so?

 

[sealchan]

How so?

By making "It" into a conceivable, rational something when "It" is not.

 

[Quintessence]

I'm not going to pretend I wholly follow what the OP is getting at, but it seems much too abstracted. One of the characteristics of contemporary Paganisms is that it is often very earth or nature-based. That is to say, tangible, physical, and practical. Pagan practices deal a lot with what some folks call "the real world" in that our gods are directly identified with this world and our practices celebrate/worship this world. Whatever it is you are talking about, @sealchan, this "revelation" sounds awfully detached from the actual world that is often the focus of Pagan practices. While I won't claim to speak for other Pagans, it seems to me we don't have much need for whatever this "name" thing is.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I've had an audacious thought that naturally wants me to let it loose on the Internet...

The central revelation of all religion is the understanding and preservation of the meaning and value of the Name and that to which it refers. Meaning arises from the Name being good and valuable and in some way belonging to its knower. The meaning of the Name must not be sullied by associations with what is bad or of no value. In truth the Name pervades all things in such a way that the right mental effort yields value in all things THROUGH the Name.

The Name is knowable but not finally reducible to any other specific physical object or mental idea. It is, in this sense, immune to critique or corruption even as it is ephemeral in the extreme. Those who literalize or otherwise try to anchor the subject of the Name to an idea or physical reality create the potential for the corruption of that name. At the same time it requires a continuous diligence in our hearts and minds not to want to corrupt the Name in exactly this way.

Anyway any sincere thoughts welcome.

Respectfully redacted:

The central revelation of all religion is the insistence that people perfect themselves morally over time, via religious effort.

The central revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ is that He volunteered to perfect people morally, by giving them power from His death and resurrection, as they volunteer now to receive such power after they leave for a place where only perfectly moral people can maintain a utopia.

 

[Skwim]

I'm not your standard Christian..

I would actually say that in the act of associating good and not bad one is again beginning to corrupt that to which the Name is pointing.

Agreed. The bad along with the good deserves to be recognized, so one has to admit the bad your god has done.

.

.

 

[sealchan]

I'm not going to pretend I wholly follow what the OP is getting at, but it seems much too abstracted. One of the characteristics of contemporary Paganisms is that it is often very earth or nature-based. That is to say, tangible, physical, and practical. Pagan practices deal a lot with what some folks call "the real world" in that our gods are directly identified with this world and our practices celebrate/worship this world. Whatever it is you are talking about, @sealchan, this "revelation" sounds awfully detached from the actual world that is often the focus of Pagan practices. While I won't claim to speak for other Pagans, it seems to me we don't have much need for whatever this "name" thing is.

You bring up a good point...and this makes me think of the role of ritual in spiritual belief. Ritual, unavoidably, makes physical through human action that which is beyond the physical.

If religion and faith were merely what I was talking about in the OP it would make it too abstract and "useless" to practical everyday affairs to be anything that anyone would persist in promoting. But by creating community or story or ritual we create a story of sort through which we regularly walk, we mutually value and it serves to bring people together outside of one's individual struggles into a space that is meant to acknowledge and remind one's self of the Name and our relationship to it. All this "corrupts" it to my way of talking. But my way of talking is mainly rooted here in the cognitive act of rational thought.

Ritual and story also address the psyche on a level outside of rational thought. Whether through direct physical experience or an openness to form and pattern that lies behind sensory experience, story, ritual and art can provide non-rational ways of knowing that which is meaningful and valuable.

I wonder if in contemporary Paganism there is a sense of belonging to the Earth or Nature and accepting the outcome of natural systems on this planet as a high form of truth. Do they not name it as Gaia or the Great Mother or some such term?

 

[sealchan]

Respectfully redacted:

The central revelation of all religion is the insistence that people perfect themselves morally over time, via religious effort.

The central revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ is that He volunteered to perfect people morally, by giving them power from His death and resurrection, as they volunteer now to receive such power after they leave for a place where only perfectly moral people can maintain a utopia.

Yet ironically Jesus perfects us no matter how morally inept we are. As suppose even the least of us merely need to turn and face in the right direction.

 

[sealchan]

Agreed. The bad along with the good deserves to be recognized, so one has to admit the bad your god has done.
.

I think that the historical injustices done in the name of Christianity are of profound value for Christians today so that they may learn to correct in themselves the mistakes that were made in the past.

But as my OP suggests this is always working against the grain.

This is primarily because truth is not a static object but an ever moving target.

 

[Skwim]

I think that the historical injustices done in the name of Christianity are of profound value for Christians today so that they may learn to correct in themselves the mistakes that were made in the past.

But as my OP suggests this is always working against the grain.

What "grain" is that?

This is primarily because truth is not a static object but an ever moving target.

How does something true become untrue?

.

 

[firedragon]

I've had an audacious thought that naturally wants me to let it loose on the Internet...

The central revelation of all religion is the understanding and preservation of the meaning and value of the Name and that to which it refers. Meaning arises from the Name being good and valuable and in some way belonging to its knower. The meaning of the Name must not be sullied by associations with what is bad or of no value. In truth the Name pervades all things in such a way that the right mental effort yields value in all things THROUGH the Name.

The Name is knowable but not finally reducible to any other specific physical object or mental idea. It is, in this sense, immune to critique or corruption even as it is ephemeral in the extreme. Those who literalize or otherwise try to anchor the subject of the Name to an idea or physical reality create the potential for the corruption of that name. At the same time it requires a continuous diligence in our hearts and minds not to want to corrupt the Name in exactly this way.

Anyway any sincere thoughts welcome.

Whats the name of the God of the Quran?

 

[LuisDantas]

One thing that I want to emphasize, that may or may not be obvious or even acceptable for other posters, is that the exact nature and attributes of the Sacred can and will vary according to the adherent.

That is to be expected, and its arguably necessary. It does not follow that any specific depictions are automatically "correct" or "incorrect" just because they won't converge.

Paraphrasing Magritte, the conception of the sacred is not the reality. We use depictions as opposed to the real thing when we want to refer to smoking pipes, and I certainly think that we also use depictions when we talk about the Sacred or comparable concepts.

Furthermore, since those depictions are ultimately tools for religious practice as opposed to some form of blueprint for cosmic projects of our own, we probably should not expect them to be very stable among different people or even different moments in time.

In that respect a form of humility is probably warranted. We perceive and understand the Sacred in myriad forms, and probably always will. That is not a flaw to be fixed; that is just how things are.

 

[stvdv]

Non-Dualism... neti-neti... and such. If this is considered a religion ( and I'm not sure that it does ), then it soars far beyond any name at all.

How I see it:
The Name (meaning developing Love) is the start on the Spiritual path.
It gives you Spiritual focus and grants Grace.

When time is right you start neti..neti

But you don't start neti on the name of God

First you start with all the quintillion thoughts in your mind. Keep the Name for the last to give up, or as the Buddhist Masters said "in the end you have to kill the Buddha"