The Book of Revelation.................

[Bennettresearch]

Revelation 13:14 the wound by the sword (war) is not Jesus.

Jesus was already decades in heaven when he gave the Revelation (1:10).

Please notice the preceding verses Rev.13: 11-13.
The beast comes out of the earth with two lamb's horns. Jesus has no horns nor speaks like a dragon. Satan is connected to a dragon (Rev 12:9) so the beast comes out of Satan's already established system on earth (2Cor 4:4).

The dragon and the other beasts of Revelation chapter 13 are political.
(leopard, bear, lion) Please compare: Daniel 7:1-7; 8:3-8,20-25.

The 'image' of the political beast are the combined political 'kings' or rulers of the earth
(Rev 17:2,17) represented as the 8th 'king' of Rev 17:11, or represented by a political organization such as the United Nations.

You are representing the kind of denial and lack of understanding of prophetic language that has prevented this chapter from being understood correctly. DON'T correct me on something you apparently know nothing about. As with your lack of knowledge about majuscule script, so is your lack of knowledge about past and future tenses used in the Greek language of this time. Who else was pierced with a sword and resurrected? You want to pick hairs but you provide nothing in the way of a better answer. It says He lives, he is communicating with John from beyond the veil. Is this Nero?, that is pretty far fetched yet people believe that before they believe it is Jesus. You are not paying attention to the transition that is made in this chapter from one description to be referred to later as a beast. The word beast is merely a substitute and has no meaning of its own. The second, do you understand what the word horn means? You are not the biblical scholar you represent yourself to be. The term horn in biblical terms is likened to a Bull’s horns. It is broadly used in the OT as one’s power to force another to do his will, or the power to conquer. One example is Psalms (22:21). You say they are political? Well duh? Does that mean it has nothing to do with the church? It most certainly does not. It is the very transgression of the politics of Rome into the Christian religion that is the warning of the prophecy. The beast who is like a lamb, is representing himself as like Jesus but is speaking like a Roman politician.

A synopsis for you


The head Bishop, most likely drawn from the likes of Clement of Rome and Ignatius fo Antioch, or predicting their coming, is a follower of Paul, who has left writings establishing his presence in the church. This Bishop will show a sign of his own. This was actually fulfilled by Constantine. He will cause an image of Jesus to be made, the crucifix, and will have everyone worship this image. Pagan worship. He will cause everyone to EITHER where a mark, the name, or number of Jesus. The mark was chosen and this is the sign of the cross. People where it on their foreheads on Ash Wednesday.


The Lamb, who is later referred to as the beast who was pierced with a sword and lives, is then the beast whose number is 666, or 616. It so clear that only someone with political motives of their own can be in denial in the face of it. You want to correct me with authority but your understanding is severely lacking. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I am a little tired of being corrected on something I have be studying for a very long time by people who don't know what they are talking about, or who want to deny what is in front of their face for political reasons.


Kindly don't suggest reading material for me, as I have read and understood more than you have on this subject as I have proven. Let's review,


You weren't aware of the lack of capitilization in the scriptures and were correcting me on that subject. Do I get an I'm sorry? NO, you shrug it off and keep on coming


You're fanciful interpretation of the second coming is speculative at best and your biblical references aren't very convincing of anything.


You flatly tell me that the beast in 13:14 is not Jesus, yet you have nothing to offer in the way of a better proof.


You try and correct me on the beast in 13:11,the follower of the first beast, yet you don't understand what the word horn means. Ignatius wrote about a centralized catholic church right around the end of the first or beginning of the second century. Are you denying that the Lamb is Jesus? If someone were to be described as like the Lamb, wouldn't this be a religious leader who was claiming power?


Jesus was decades dead? I see, you believe that Jesus spoke to Paul from beyond the veil but you don't believe that He spoke to John? If He were speaking to John, then wouldn't that be considered as being alive. Testimony of spiritual resurrection. You also need to study up on the use of past, present, and future tenses, used in the Greek literature of that time.


Jesus has no horns or speaks like a dragon. The verse doesn't say that, it says one LIKE the Lamb. Therefore, this is someone supposedly representing the purity of Jesus while speaking like the dragon. Simply put, not a true representative of Jesus. Gee, if it not a Bishop of Rome, then who is it? You don't seem to answer that question.


My suggestion is that you might want to read Daniel some more and try and understand what it is saying. Daniel is not a contiguous work, more than one author. The Daniel you keep referring to is actually writing about the events and future from the second century BCE. Judas Maccabaeus was petitioning the Romans for help and the warning Daniel is giving is to not go there, it will be no good for Israel. So yes, Daniel's beasts are Roman, and Revelation uses this literary device, but Daniel is not writing about anything other than Israel. Once more, an OT prophet is co-opted by a Judaizer.


You are attempting to Jump to chapter 17 without understanding chapter 13 first. I notice that you don't mention the Great Harlot. Gee, would that kind of ruin your denial?


You have not even put a scratch on my interpretation of chapter 13 and provided nothing in the way of even providing a minor point to correct me on any part of it. Kindly refrain from correcting me and try and get your act together to provide better arguments. I am getting more used to being corrected by people who don't know what they are talking about so I am able to remain courteous.
Craig

I consider myself to be a courteous person, but I don't get much of that in return. If I were to be truly corrected on anything, I would own up to it and even apologize. Not one person that arrogantly proposed to tell me I don't know this subject has ever done that in the face of being proven wrong. Therefore, don't whine if someone is treating you like you are treating them.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What beast is: like a lamb? There is a beast mentioned that has: 'two [2] horns like a lamb', but where is there a mention of a 'beast like a lamb' altogether? -Rev 13:10

Picture not a lamb with two[2] horns, but as Revelation says: a beast with two[2] horns like a lamb. Isn't there is a difference from like a lamb to like a beast with lamb's horns?
The only lamb-like part of the beast is its two [2] horns.

I am not denying Jesus is the Lamb (Lamb that takes away the sins of the world), but the Lamb Jesus is Not: the beast with two[2] lamb's horns.

The Great Harlot (Rev 17:5) can trace her roots back to ancient Babylon when the people from the tower of Babel migrated world wide and took their pagan Babylonian religious practices and ideas with them and spread them into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great. That is why mankind in general can trace its religious family tree back to its pagan roots in ancient Babylon and we see a fusion or mixture of pagan religious customs or traditions today with Christian names or labels attached to them.

 

[Bennettresearch]

What beast is: like a lamb? There is a beast mentioned that has: 'two [2] horns like a lamb', but where is there a mention of a 'beast like a lamb' altogether? -Rev 13:10

Picture not a lamb with two[2] horns, but as Revelation says: a beast with two[2] horns like a lamb. Isn't there is a difference from like a lamb to like a beast with lamb's horns?
The only lamb-like part of the beast is its two [2] horns.

I am not denying Jesus is the Lamb (Lamb that takes away the sins of the world), but the Lamb Jesus is Not: the beast with two[2] lamb's horns.

The Great Harlot (Rev 17:5) can trace her roots back to ancient Babylon when the people from the tower of Babel migrated world wide and took their pagan Babylonian religious practices and ideas with them and spread them into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great. That is why mankind in general can trace its religious family tree back to its pagan roots in ancient Babylon and we see a fusion or mixture of pagan religious customs or traditions today with Christian names or labels attached to them.

Let's begin on the observations of scholars who define the Greek language used in Revelation as crude as opposed to the refined language used in some Gospels. This is why, in their opinion, the Apostle John did not write GJohn. The second point is that this prophecy is written in a traditional fashion, that is at least in the original parts of it. To use our english grammatical parsing of the text leads to research on how it is translated. There is no elaboration in the text so we end up with a lamb and horns. As chapter 13 connects the different players, the lamb reference is relevant. You could insert [and was] between the horns and the lamb and you would get someone like a lamb who had two horns. This is similar to Hebrew text with no vowels and word separation. The word horn means possessing power and the act of conquering. Therefore, someone who is like the lamb has power. When drawn into the totallity of the text, this is indicating a religious leader. It is clearly pointing towards the Bishops of Rome, the Dragon. Interpreting Babylon literally? It is a literary device and the meaning of Babylon denotes paganism. It is symbolically referring to the Christian religion being held captive by the pagans. The Great Harlot is the Christian church and Rev 13:10 is warning about following this church. It is an obvious reference to the Babylonian captivity but it is symbolic. Just like the symbolic similarities to Daniel, a similar situation with the Romans, but a different time and subject.
People have continually projected this prophecy into the future and have denied the fulfillment of OT prophecies and combined it altogether to form a very fictional account of Revelation while stressing the apocalypse without any understanding of why it would come or what it would be about. I have approached this objectively and through a long process I have shed any preconceived ideas and have tried to get into the mind of the author the best that I could. The setting is in the first century. Even though there is no proof of it, it does read like it was written by the Apostle John or maybe someone taught by him. It could have been written a long time before it was published so to speak around 95 CE. It has definitely been doctored as the first seven verses in chapter 1 display this.
What would John's issues be? It would be how he has been overshadowed by those who have the writing skill to write letters or books. They had the last word and it is likely that John got tired of fighting it. Revelation is pointing towards these issues; 1. The meaning of the crucifixion, 2. Paul's claim of being an apostle and his interpretation of the crucifixion, 3. The claim of power over the Christian church emanating from Rome, 4. Roman citizens interpreting the doctrine of the religion to suit themselves, 5. The battle with the Judaizers who held on tight to Jesus and demanded that everything be a fulfillment of the OT prophecies, 6. The fact that true teachings of Jesus and any doctrine he would define was being swept aside.
So where are we? We have people giving purley secular interpretations to Revelation and creating their own myth, which has become very popular and is considered as fact. Yet, something so clearly laid out as chapter 13 is denied. I won't go into the Seven Seal here for space reasons, but I have an old thread on the subject in this forum. A while after I had been working on it, and like any work in progress I refined it later, I discovered something I'll share with you.
“#1-8 Christ, the Lamb, opens the first seal: observe what appeared. A rider on a white horse. By the going forth of this white horse, a time of peace, or the early progress of the Christian religion, seems to be intended; its going forth in purity, at the time when its heavenly Founder sent his apostles to teach all nations, adding, Lo! I am with you alway(s)46, even to the end of the world. The Divine religion goes out crowned, having the Divine favour resting upon it, armed spiritually against its foes, and destined to be victorious in the end. On opening the second seal, a red horse appeared; this signifies desolating judgments. The sword of war and persecution is a dreadful judgment; it takes away peace from the earth, one of the greatest blessings; and men who should love one another, and help one another, are set upon killing one another. Such scenes also followed the pure age of early Christianity, when, neglectful of charity and the bond of peace, the Christian leaders, divided among themselves, appealed to the sword, and entangled themselves in guilt.”
[The Deluxe Multimedia Bible; Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the New Testament, Revelation Chapter 6, Swift Jewel Software: Cosmi Inc., Rancho Dominguez 1996.]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Revelation 13:11 says: another 'beast' out of the earth and he (beast) had two horns.
Please notice the beast has two horns.
Verse one: the beast (not lamb) comes out of the sea, not earth.
That is why this beast (not lamb) is 'another' beast in verse 11.

The beast has two horns. The horns, not the beast, are like a lamb.
A lamb would be mild, so wouldn't this mean that the 2 horns are mild like a lamb?
The description for the beast's horns is that only the horns of the beast are lamb-like.

Greek Interlinear :

Rev 13:11

And I saw other wild beast stepping up out of the earth, and it was having horns two like to lamb, and it was speaking as dragon. Who is the dragon of Rev 12:9,12 ?

Please notice the only part of the beast that is like a lamb is its horns.
Beast would be ferocious, but its horns would be mild like a lamb.

Do you have a nearby college that possibly could have a professor of Greek?
I would very much like to hear is explanation of Rev 13:11

 

[Bennettresearch]

Revelation 13:11 says: another 'beast' out of the earth and he (beast) had two horns.
Please notice the beast has two horns.
Verse one: the beast (not lamb) comes out of the sea, not earth.
That is why this beast (not lamb) is 'another' beast in verse 11.

The beast has two horns. The horns, not the beast, are like a lamb.
A lamb would be mild, so wouldn't this mean that the 2 horns are mild like a lamb?
The description for the beast's horns is that only the horns of the beast are lamb-like.

Greek Interlinear :

Rev 13:11

And I saw other wild beast stepping up out of the earth, and it was having horns two like to lamb, and it was speaking as dragon. Who is the dragon of Rev 12:9,12 ?

Please notice the only part of the beast that is like a lamb is its horns.
Beast would be ferocious, but its horns would be mild like a lamb.

Do you have a nearby college that possibly could have a professor of Greek?
I would very much like to hear is explanation of Rev 13:11

I thought that I explained it already. Where the distinction lies is that parsing English grammar doesn’t always work out, especially when one is trying to pick hairs to interpret a verse. Not only is Greek grammar different from ours, according to scholars, this chapter was written in a crude form of Greek. That means that a translator, when translating a verse they might not understand the true meaning of, will do the best they can and may translate it literally as a default. To understand what it says you have to keep in mind that the order of the words may have to be changed to impart the meaning of the verse in English. Let’s look at another verse to demonstrate this. I mainly use the American Standard Version but I always double check it. Let’s compare verse 13:8.

King James Version

Revelation 13:8; And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Young’s Literal Translation

Revelation 13:8; And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;

American Standard Version

Revelation 13:8; and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.


The American Standard Version changes the order of the words but it doesn’t make as much sense as the KJV and YLT versions. Since this verse is easier to understand it is easier to put the words in the right order. As a comparison, their versions of 13:11 are identical. This means that is was literally translated. It is not unreasonable to change the word order so as to make more sense in English. If you simply say the beast was like a lamb, with two horns, and spoke like a dragon, it makes perfect sense in English and does not change the meaning of the verse. I reduced it to its elements; two horns-and- a lamb. The very basic meaning is a religious leader who has great power. A common example of grammatical transposition would be like this. We say, “It is Bob’s House.” While other languages would say, “ It is the house of Bob.” It seems that you are trying to make an interpretive point out of a grammatical difference in language. If the Greek text were more refined, then there might be a point of the definition of this beast in parsing syntax.

The most popular interpretation of this verse in the Antichrist myth has been to identify this beast as an imitator of Christ, representing himself as Christ. So even the mythmakers are catching on to the basic meaning of this verse. The actions of this beast do not support him being an imitator of Christ, only seeking the same authority. The method used to attain this is to exalt the first beast and make an image of the beast who was “pierced with a sword and has come to life.” This is followed by making his followers wear a mark of this beast. As to speaking like a dragon, since Rome is understood to be the dragon, this beast would not be speaking the word of Jesus, but would be representing Rome, or Paganism. John was already seeing examples of this in the first century even though it would not be totally fulfilled until a couple of hundred years later. A much tighter time frame than those who have projected it into the twenty first century.

The mark of the beast did not end up to be wearing 666 on one’s forehead. The mark of the beast ended up to be the Cross. If one wore a cross after the fourth century then they would be assured of having a life within the empire, woe be unto them who refused to wear it, they wouldn’t have a life. The image of the beast is the Crucifix. John goes a little overboard in his claim that it would be made like a statue in a pagan temple. It was not uncommon for these idols to be animated or breathe fire. The Church didn’t go that far.

Go ahead and find someone who is an authority on Ancient Greek. From what I have read about it, I’m confident that my explanation on this matter will be valid. Also, I think the translators have actually done a very good job on this text. I consider them to be authorities on the matter.


“But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matthew (12:7)


Craig

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Who is the 'him' of Rev 13:8, Isn't it [him] the 'first' beast of Rev chapter 13?___________

Revelation 13:11 says 'another' beast. Where does this 'another' beast come from? Doesn't it say the beast comes out of the earth. The resurrected heavenly Jesus did not come out of the earth. Jesus was in heaven decades before Revelation was written.

What does verse 11 say about the two horns?
Doesn't it say the horns of the beast are lamb like?
Isn't the only part of the beast that is like a lamb the horns?

What small part of this beast has the characteristics of a lamb?

Isn't Jesus the 'Lamb' with a capital "L"?
The horns like a lamb is not a capitalized letter "l" but all lower case.

The Bible's Christian Greek Scriptures were not written in 'ancient Greek' but written in the common Greek [Koine] of the first Century besides some Aramaic.

 

[Bick]

IPROPHET quote:
"When he returns there are several raisings of the dead. The first to be raised are the 2 witnesses we see in Rev 11. Then we will have the tribes come in from great tribulation and this is mentioned in Rev 14:1-3. Then we see those that came through gret tribulation to receive their white robes (Rev 7:14). Then we will have the 1st resurrection of all those that have lived “in Christ”. This is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52 and 1Thess 4:16-17."

MY COMMENTS: I disagree. Believers today are in the church/body of Christ are to be caught away to meet the Lord in the air, as we read in 1 Cor. 15:51-56 and 1 Thes. 4:16-17. This will involve the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the changing of those alive, then both groups being made alive with spiritual bodies.
Reading Ephesians 1 thru 3, we see that the body of Christ will be in the heavenlies, as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. In the ages to come we will be witnessing to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places the exceeding riches of God's grace in his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

The body of Christ has no part in the Millennial Kingdom on earth.

 

[Bick]

Hi, Bullinger is full of it because he a sympathizer of the Catholic Church and his study, while in some parts is scholarly, is in total denial of what the prophecy is saying.Craig

Your comment on Bullinger--is it your honest opinion after reading his commentaries, or are you quoting some one else?

Bullinger, to me, as seen in his Companion Bible and other commentaries, is far from a Roman Catholic sympathiser.
Case in point: The Catholics first promoted the doctrine of man having an immortal soul. Not so with Bullinger! He shows from the Scriptures that when man dies, he is dead until resurrected, just as I believe.
He does not indorse the theory that the "Church" replaces Israel and all its blessings, as the RC Church does.
He does not promote the revival of the Roman Empire in the last days.
He believes in a fifth kingdom after the Roman Empire, namely the Islamic Empire of Saliman the Great, whose kingdom defeated the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire after conquering Constantinople and the nations around the Meditterranean Sea, including Palestine and Jerusalem.

As for Revelation, it complements Daniel, whose prophecy concerns his people, Israel.
I am in agreement with Bullinger's commentary on Revelation, showing that the subjects are Israel, the nations, and the earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

RE: fifth kingdom after the Roman Empire.

Revelation 17:10,11 mentions 7 kings, 5 are fallen... the 8th is out of the 7.

The iron legs of Nebuchadnezzar's dream image pictures not only the Roman Empire but its political outgrowth. While John wrote Revelation he was held in exile by the Romans.
The 5 fallen kings or world powers of Bible history were: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. So the 6th would be Roman one in power in John's day that was also going to fall, and the 7th king would arise out of Rome's captured territories.
Britain was once a NW part of the Roman Empire. Britain and America did became partners in our day or forming an Angelo-American duel combination as a 7th world power. So, the 8th king or power comes into power from the backing of the powers that be, so to speak, into strengthening the United Nations. In the climax of the dream image a stone crushes all the powers on earth and God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus replaces all of them.
-Daniel 2:31-45; 7:13,14; Isaiah 9:7.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Your comment on Bullinger--is it your honest opinion after reading his commentaries, or are you quoting some one else?

Bullinger, to me, as seen in his Companion Bible and other commentaries, is far from a Roman Catholic sympathiser.
Case in point: The Catholics first promoted the doctrine of man having an immortal soul. Not so with Bullinger! He shows from the Scriptures that when man dies, he is dead until resurrected, just as I believe.
He does not indorse the theory that the "Church" replaces Israel and all its blessings, as the RC Church does.
He does not promote the revival of the Roman Empire in the last days.
He believes in a fifth kingdom after the Roman Empire, namely the Islamic Empire of Saliman the Great, whose kingdom defeated the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire after conquering Constantinople and the nations around the Meditterranean Sea, including Palestine and Jerusalem.

As for Revelation, it complements Daniel, whose prophecy concerns his people, Israel.
I am in agreement with Bullinger's commentary on Revelation, showing that the subjects are Israel, the nations, and the earth.

Hi,
After wading through Bullinger's book, there was one section where he denied that the Seven Seals had anything to do with Church. In my many years of study on this subject, I have concluded differently. I have also found out where I am not alone and there have been representations of this going back many centuries. They have been drowned out by the spin doctors or defenders of the church, or have even lost theirs lives.
I am not dismissing Bullinger out of hand, one could pick through his commentary and find things that may speak of the truth. What he did was to draw attention away from the very subject the Seven Seals are about. Here is someone who disagrees with him as I do.
“#1-8 Christ, the Lamb, opens the first seal: observe what appeared. A rider on a white horse. By the going forth of this white horse, a time of peace, or the early progress of the Christian religion, seems to be intended; its going forth in purity, at the time when its heavenly Founder sent his apostles to teach all nations, adding, Lo! I am with you alway(s)46, even to the end of the world. The Divine religion goes out crowned, having the Divine favour resting upon it, armed spiritually against its foes, and destined to be victorious in the end. On opening the second seal, a red horse appeared; this signifies desolating judgments. The sword of war and persecution is a dreadful judgment; it takes away peace from the earth, one of the greatest blessings; and men who should love one another, and help one another, are set upon killing one another. Such scenes also followed the pure age of early Christianity, when, neglectful of charity and the bond of peace, the Christian leaders, divided among themselves, appealed to the sword, and entangled themselves in guilt.”
[The Deluxe Multimedia Bible; Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the New Testament, Revelation Chapter 6, Swift Jewel Software: Cosmi Inc., Rancho Dominguez 1996.]
Craig

 

[Bennettresearch]

Who is the 'him' of Rev 13:8, Isn't it [him] the 'first' beast of Rev chapter 13?___________

Revelation 13:11 says 'another' beast. Where does this 'another' beast come from? Doesn't it say the beast comes out of the earth. The resurrected heavenly Jesus did not come out of the earth. Jesus was in heaven decades before Revelation was written.

What does verse 11 say about the two horns?
Doesn't it say the horns of the beast are lamb like?
Isn't the only part of the beast that is like a lamb the horns?

What small part of this beast has the characteristics of a lamb?

Isn't Jesus the 'Lamb' with a capital "L"?
The horns like a lamb is not a capitalized letter "l" but all lower case.

The Bible's Christian Greek Scriptures were not written in 'ancient Greek' but written in the common Greek [Koine] of the first Century besides some Aramaic.

You are rambling wildly. At each juncture you have crashed and burned in our debate and yet you never acknowledge where you have not proven what you have contended. I have been polite enough to prove my case to you yet you seem to unable to give an objective analysis of chapter 13, which is the most important chapter to understand first. All of the myth surrounding the Antichrist is based on this chapter yet when presented with the facts you seem to want to go off into la la land.
The beast who was like a lamb, is claiming the authority of the Lamb.It's pretty straight forward. Why you insist upon putting horns on the Lamb is beyond me. They are not the same thing. Two different beasts.

I have supplied a complete interpretation of chapter 13 in my thread Debunking the Antichrist Myth. I have put it through the acid test for years and in spite of the fact that people who have been brainwashed don't want to believe it, it passes the test.
Craig

 

[Bennettresearch]

A little bit about chapter 7. This was not written by the same author as chapter 13. Even in English one can see the different style of writing that is used. It is most likely penned by the same person that wrote verses 1-7 in chapter 1. This is an obvious addition to this book that no one can deny. John warns us about this likelihood in Rev 22:18. The text of chapter 13 does not support the traditional propaganda that our sins are washed in the blood of Christ. This was propagated by Paul and Revelation has many verses declaring Paul as not being an Apostle, and in this case, not a prophet either.Craig

 

[watchnwarn]

Please give me your take on this. Who you believe they are and their role in prophecy. Revelation 17. Then we can go from there.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Please give me your take on this. Who you believe they are and their role in prophecy. Revelation 17. Then we can go from there.

Rev 17:2 the 'kings' are the political kings of the earth.
Rev 17:17 God puts it into the political hearts, so to speak, to give their kingdom, not to Christ, but to the political beast of verse 11.
The beast of verse 11 is likened to an 8th king.
In other words, the political world thinks it is their idea when in reality God is the one behind the scene. God allows what is to happen because the false religious world has run afoul playing false to God and Christ.

The beast of verse 8 was the League of Nations so the beast, or 8th king of verse 11, is the United Nations or image of the political beast.

The ten horns that we see in verse 3 are the ten kings of verse 12.
Ten would be earthly completeness or represent all the political powers of earth represented as united as one. They turn their backs on the Lamb [Jesus] -verse 14. Since they can not get at the heavenly Jesus the political world will go after Jesus followers on earth.

The woman of verse 18 is also the woman of verses 1-7. This woman sits on many waters according to verse 1, and verse 15 explains the waters are peoples. (Isa 57:20). This woman commits [spiritual] fornication with the political world. This woman is dressed like a 'queen' in verse 4, and since she is drunk with the blood of the saints as verse 6 indicates she is involved with religion.

If we trace mankind's religious family tree back to its roots in Mesopotamia we see that from ancient Babylon the people migrated and took with them pagan religious ideas and pagan practices and spread them throughout the earth into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great. That is why today there are Christian names or labels on pagan traditions or customs. This Babylon the Great has a counterfeit religious kingdom over the kings of the earth.

So it will be a shock to her when the political 'kings' of the earth ban together to turn on the world's false religious 'queen' (Rev 18:7).

 

[watchnwarn]

The woman of Rev. 17 is a great false church/religion. Now think about this for a second. Verse 4 says she is arrayed in purple and scarlet. In what church are those colors worn. You are right the beast of Rev. 17 is a political system but it is the European Union, and it's final king/leader is the beast. There is a huge push by the Roman Catholic Church for Europe to reunite and rediscover it's Roman Catholic roots. This will be the final revival of the Holy Roman Empire. The ten horns are ten kings that will give all authority to the beast. The false church/prophet will cause all who dwell on the earth [except Gods elect] to worship the beast. The beast and the false prophet/antichrist will persecute Gods true church and martyr many of the true Saints of God. The the beast will turn on the woman and destroy her Then the beast and all his followers will fight Christ at his second coming.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Rev 17:2 does Not say one Union but 'plural' that the kings of the earth or political powers of earth commit fornication with the woman. Do not earth's kings mourn the passing of the woman at Rev. 18:9,10? It is not just one king or one political union but all of them.

Additionally since the woman is mourned by the world's merchants -Rev 18:15,16 all of the world's businessmen were making profit off of her. Please notice Rev 18:23.
Doesn't it say that by the woman's sorceries 'all nations' were deceived? So 'all nations' of earth are mislead by the womans spiritistic practices or similar religious concepts.
So the Woman is a world-wide religious entity not just one part. She would have to be larger than the Catholic Church if she is to mislead 'all' the nations of earth.

Rediscover Roman Catholic roots. Doesn't its roots trace back to Constantine?
Babylonish religious doctrines and practices are Not only common in Catholic teachings but world wide. Mankind can trace its religious family tree's roots back to ancient Babylon.
From ancient pagan Babylon tower of Babel the pagan peoples migrated and and spread their pagan religious ideas and practices into a greater religious Babylon or "Babylon the Great". Isn't that why we see pagan teachings dressed up with Christian names such as Christmas and Easter? Constantine used a mixture or fusion of pagan customs or traditions and put Christian names or labels on them. So that Christendom today is Not the practices of first-century Christianity. So Babylonish religion that started more than 4,000 years ago in ancient Babylon has developed into the modern-day monstrosity called Babylon the Great.
Religious Babylon the Great seeks to influence or mold political affairs by prostituting herself spiritually by getting involved with alliances with all the nations of the earth instead of trusting in God. The Catholic church is not responsible for all the blood shed on earth. By the woman meddling in the political affairs of the kings of the earth she has brought sorrow to all mankind so that Rev 18:24 (Matthew 23:35) blames her for the blood of all slain upon the earth.

The political beast 'kings' of earth will turn on the false religious woman 'queen' of Rev 18:8 or the world's false religious sector playing false to God and get rid of her.
No one can fight with the heavenly Christ (the world will see him No more -John 14:19),
but they can fight with Christ's followers living on earth at the time of Jesus glory
(Matt 25:31,32,40,46; 16:27). Isaiah (11:4) ; Rev. (19:14,15) say heavenly armies follow Jesus and the words from Jesus mouth will be like a sharp two-edged sword and the words from Jesus mouth will smite those against his 'brothers' (Matt 25:40) on earth at that time.
By fighting against Jesus followers on earth it is just as if they were fighting Christ himself.

 

[Bennettresearch]

The woman of Rev. 17 is a great false church/religion. Now think about this for a second. Verse 4 says she is arrayed in purple and scarlet. In what church are those colors worn. You are right the beast of Rev. 17 is a political system but it is the European Union, and it's final king/leader is the beast. There is a huge push by the Roman Catholic Church for Europe to reunite and rediscover it's Roman Catholic roots. This will be the final revival of the Holy Roman Empire. The ten horns are ten kings that will give all authority to the beast. The false church/prophet will cause all who dwell on the earth [except Gods elect] to worship the beast. The beast and the false prophet/antichrist will persecute Gods true church and martyr many of the true Saints of God. The the beast will turn on the woman and destroy her Then the beast and all his followers will fight Christ at his second coming.

Hi,
I quite agree with your interpretation. I would like to point out that the number ten is merely a literary vehicle and has no meaning unto itself. You have at least seen beyond this to actually read what the prphecy is saying. Mr VIP and I have been going around and around because of his denial that Revelation was written to warn us of the church that was forming in the first century. I can understand why people would want to accept anything of a secular nature to avoid looking at the church. I can't seem to get people beyond chapter 13.
I would be interested in your opinion on my exposition of chapter 13 in my Debunking the Antichrist Myth thread and my thread on whether the perpetuation of the myth surrounding the number 666 is a conspiracy or myopia.
Craig

 

[Bennettresearch]

Rev 17:2 does Not say one Union but 'plural' that the kings of the earth or political powers of earth commit fornication with the woman. Do not earth's kings mourn the passing of the woman at Rev. 18:9,10? It is not just one king or one political union but all of them.

Additionally since the woman is mourned by the world's merchants -Rev 18:15,16 all of the world's businessmen were making profit off of her. Please notice Rev 18:23.
Doesn't it say that by the woman's sorceries 'all nations' were deceived? So 'all nations' of earth are mislead by the womans spiritistic practices or similar religious concepts.
So the Woman is a world-wide religious entity not just one part. She would have to be larger than the Catholic Church if she is to mislead 'all' the nations of earth.

Rediscover Roman Catholic roots. Doesn't its roots trace back to Constantine?
Babylonish religious doctrines and practices are Not only common in Catholic teachings but world wide. Mankind can trace its religious family tree's roots back to ancient Babylon.
From ancient pagan Babylon tower of Babel the pagan peoples migrated and and spread their pagan religious ideas and practices into a greater religious Babylon or "Babylon the Great". Isn't that why we see pagan teachings dressed up with Christian names such as Christmas and Easter? Constantine used a mixture or fusion of pagan customs or traditions and put Christian names or labels on them. So that Christendom today is Not the practices of first-century Christianity. So Babylonish religion that started more than 4,000 years ago in ancient Babylon has developed into the modern-day monstrosity called Babylon the Great.
Religious Babylon the Great seeks to influence or mold political affairs by prostituting herself spiritually by getting involved with alliances with all the nations of the earth instead of trusting in God. The Catholic church is not responsible for all the blood shed on earth. By the woman meddling in the political affairs of the kings of the earth she has brought sorrow to all mankind so that Rev 18:24 (Matthew 23:35) blames her for the blood of all slain upon the earth.

The political beast 'kings' of earth will turn on the false religious woman 'queen' of Rev 18:8 or the world's false religious sector playing false to God and get rid of her.
No one can fight with the heavenly Christ (the world will see him No more -John 14:19),
but they can fight with Christ's followers living on earth at the time of Jesus glory
(Matt 25:31,32,40,46; 16:27). Isaiah (11:4) ; Rev. (19:14,15) say heavenly armies follow Jesus and the words from Jesus mouth will be like a sharp two-edged sword and the words from Jesus mouth will smite those against his 'brothers' (Matt 25:40) on earth at that time.
By fighting against Jesus followers on earth it is just as if they were fighting Christ himself.

I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how Greek Koine has the same grammatical structure as modern English. That was what your entire argument and idiosyncratic interpretation of Rev 13:11 seems to be based upon.
The Roman Catholic Church did have the whole western world in it's control until the Reformation. Which should have been the Seventh Seal but prophecies don't always come true to the letter. Constantine is the beast in Rev 13:11 and he fulfilled the prophecy. He appointed himself as head Bishop and performed a great sign no doubt inspired by Galatians.

 

[Bennettresearch]

The Seven Seals
By Craig Bennett

The First Seal: Constantine the Great

The Second Seal: Charlemagne; Conversion by the Sword

The Third Seal: The Worldly Church

The Fourth Seal: The Crusades (Domestic)

The Fifth Seal: The Inquisitions

The Sixth Seal: A representation of the Crucifixion as a heinous act of murder and the wrath of Jesus upon those who accept the Mark of the Beast; the Cross.

The Seventh Seal: The Reformation. No doubt that this was only the first battle and that it will continue.

This is very basic but I can elaborate.

 

[Poet-Troll]

This thread is full of herrings red,
So I'll suggest you read instead
My contribution to turmoil,
My comment on John's island toil.
Read it in volume four of The
Beloved and I, see what you see.
I'm new here, so I've not yet read
With care all that has here been said,
But I'll return the courtesy
And read the whole thread faithfully.