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The book of Job
- Thread starter Thief
- Start date
thewindblows
Member
I believe this book of Job belongs within the book of Genesis or even after Genesis 1-2?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I started this thread because someone working a topic suggested another participant had not correctly read Job.
I find the preamble to be the most important and interesting part.
Please allow my paraphrasing. It will help me get to the point somewhat quicker.
The Sons of God did gather and with them came the Devil.
( I notice.....more than one son of God )
God does ask..."What are You doing here?"
(directed to the devil)
"oh I just come and go as I damn well please"
"Well....have You considered the least of my servants Job?"
(this is a rub on the Devil's nose....as if to say....the presence of Job...the least of servants.... is preferred.)
The Devil recants....and makes a remark as if to imply the character of Job is less than it should be.
God recants again...and allows the Devil all manner of discretion against Job, short of killing the man.
Now picture yourself as Job.
You're about to have your *** kicked....thoroughly....and by someone who really knows how to kick ***. No warning.
And it was God that sent him your way....and is willing to stand back and do nothing.
The Sons of God are silent.
I find the preamble to be the most important and interesting part.
Please allow my paraphrasing. It will help me get to the point somewhat quicker.
The Sons of God did gather and with them came the Devil.
( I notice.....more than one son of God )
God does ask..."What are You doing here?"
(directed to the devil)
"oh I just come and go as I damn well please"
"Well....have You considered the least of my servants Job?"
(this is a rub on the Devil's nose....as if to say....the presence of Job...the least of servants.... is preferred.)
The Devil recants....and makes a remark as if to imply the character of Job is less than it should be.
God recants again...and allows the Devil all manner of discretion against Job, short of killing the man.
Now picture yourself as Job.
You're about to have your *** kicked....thoroughly....and by someone who really knows how to kick ***. No warning.
And it was God that sent him your way....and is willing to stand back and do nothing.
The Sons of God are silent.
Last edited:
thewindblows
Member
good laugh from your wording, thanks I needed that.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Job is not an historical book. Rather, it is an example of a particular genre of theodicy from the ancient near east. It features an apocalyptic heavenly scened followed by lengthy discourses on the mysteries of divine ways. Thus we shouldn't take ANY PART OF THIS BOOK as building theology on historical events. It is essentially a philosophical examination of the conundrum of how it is that righteous people suffer.
How do you know that?
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Because I was introduced to the genre in a seminary class. Sumerian, Hittite, Assyrian and other ancient near eastern cultures have similar kinds of stories. In no case were these stories regarded as seriously historical. Rather, they set forth a person who is righteous according to a cultural standard and yet was suffering immesurably. The question was "How could (a) god let this happen"? It is a deeply philosophical literature, employing long discourses, just as we see in Job, to confront the seeming contradiction of the existence of a God who blesses the righteous with a righteous person suffering. Theodicy.
So are alot of the books in the bible just philosphical meanderings? If so, why do so many Christians take them literally? I think this would be quite problematic for anyone picking up the Bible and honestly try to figure out what's what.
imaginaryme
Active Member
How does one read incorrectly?
I love the Book of Job. This book defines all the "righteousness" I need to know. God is beyond understanding, satan is merely a title meaning "the accuser," and the moral of the story is that being righteous is a far different state of affairs than speaking of righteousness.
I love the Book of Job. This book defines all the "righteousness" I need to know. God is beyond understanding, satan is merely a title meaning "the accuser," and the moral of the story is that being righteous is a far different state of affairs than speaking of righteousness.
Close... Exodus.
Not looking for a calander year but rather the events that are happening during the events of Job. Where Job resides is irrelevant it's where he was before these events that tells.
Job is a real person, as real as other personages introduced in the Torah. Only he's not in the written Torah but rather the oral Torah.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
There are a few in what Jewish readers might call "the writings." This includes such books as the Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Job, and Proverbs.
Three points. First, I object to the word "just", which probably means "merely." Also, I object to the word "meanderings", which probably means "pointless" or "aimless." These books are not "merely" anything. They are penetrating, deeply challenging, and they certainly have a point. (Interestingly, many have observed that Proverbs, Job and Ecclesiastes argue contrary viewpoints!)
Second of all, Christians don't take them "literally" (at least, most don't), but they take them authoritatively. There's a world of difference between those perspectives.
Thirdly, it should come as no surprise that handling the bible poses problems. We are separated by time and culture from the original authors, so readers will need at least some guidance.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Your analysis of Job is a case in point....
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Did you have a correction to make?
Well now I have two different viewpoints. Your viewpoint that says Job was not real and only meant to be taken philosophically and the opinion of Zardoz, right above your post stating this: "Job is a real person, as real as other personages introduced in the Torah. Only he's not in the written Torah but rather the oral Torah."
I also note you learned this in a seminary, presumably taught by people in your religion. I don't mean this in an offensive way, but don't you think that their teachings would already be biased based on their beliefs and to be understood as such.
What is your definition of the difference between literally and authoritively?
Yes there are always problems when we try to figure out what past cultures might have meant in their writings. That is why I don't see how anyone can state that they know what they mean, whether they were real or philosphical etc. It really seems to be all guessing imo.
AK4
Well-Known Member
My question is how can these seminaries teach that Job was not a real person when God mentions the righteousness of Noah Daniel and Job in another book. Why would God mention Job as a real person, a man WITH righteousness if he was never real? Its pretty obsurd aint it?
Eze 14:14 -even {though} these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their {own} righteousness they could {only} deliver themselves," declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 14:20 - even {though} Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, as I live," declares the Lord GOD, "they could not deliver either {their} son or {their} daughter. They would deliver only themselves by their righteousness."
AK4
Well-Known Member
I will admit it does seem bad if you dont know or understand Gods plan. But when you do you start understand the necessity of everything. Here is His plan in a nutshell--
"And saying is God, Make WILL WE [a continuing action] humanity in Our image "
and
"And CREATING [a continuing action] is God humanity in His image" (Gen. 1:26a & 27a Concordant Literal Old Testament),
He is giving us a experience of evil to humble us so we will know trully what is good, hence the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Thats pretty watered down but thats it in a nutshell.
Hope that helps
Baydwin
Well-Known Member
I've read that Job is a very old book, possibly written before the Hebrew religion existed in any real sense, back when it was branching off of the religion of the Canaanites.
HaSatan roams over the Earth, it's his job to test humanity, to weed out the unfaithful and make them faithful and to test and strengthen the already faithful. He's HaShems prosecutor, he brings forth those who fall short of G-d's expectations for judgement.
G-d was pleased with Job because of his faith. He pointed this out to HaSatan and gave him free reign to test Job, beyond his usual tests, confident in the strength of Job's devotion.
Satan is a servent of G-d, not his opposition.
The sons of El, being the various Ba'als.Thief said:
HaSatan roams over the Earth, it's his job to test humanity, to weed out the unfaithful and make them faithful and to test and strengthen the already faithful. He's HaShems prosecutor, he brings forth those who fall short of G-d's expectations for judgement.
G-d was pleased with Job because of his faith. He pointed this out to HaSatan and gave him free reign to test Job, beyond his usual tests, confident in the strength of Job's devotion.
Satan is a servent of G-d, not his opposition.