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The Black Flame?

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
In fact I'll help you out. You can just bold where I was demeaning, fundamentalist, whatever you need to feel better.


For me, I'm not sure "Black Flame" as any real meaning. If asked, I couldn't really even explain what it might mean, outside of personal symbolism.

The Black Flame to me would be the essence of the LHP.

I think people get too caught up in subjective symbolism, especially since all symbols essentially are meaningless.

Technically everything is meaningless.

There's mind, that doesn't mean there's meaning. I feel like I'm missing the point you're trying to make.

That's a really solid point.

Who even started this concept of the black flame in the modern LHP? Personally it seems on the verge of unified dogma at this point.

To me the black flame means nothing. Let the RHP dwell on darkness, I enjoy the light ("spiritually", materially I prefer night).

That seems extremely random. Experience and see a made up, subjective idea? The black flame is just the cross of the LHP on this forum, and your response is 100% unrelated to what I said.

By your assumption of my lacking experience and accusation of closed mindedness I'm inclined to believe you know nothing about me. Apparently not buying into the concept of the black flame instead preferring my own symbolism makes me closed minded... what a joke.

And any attempt to show me projecting my own hangups onto others here would be appreciated. I'm bored, could use the laugh.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Again, if you'd like to attempt quoting where I did anything but say I find the concept becoming rather dogmatic, I could use the laugh. Doesn't seem like I'm the one who needs soul searching, I'm not making up attacks pulling pseudo-intellectual crap out of my *** just because someone differs from my opinion.

Who even started this concept of the black flame in the modern LHP? Personally it seems on the verge of unified dogma at this point.

To me the black flame means nothing. Let the RHP dwell on darkness, I enjoy the light ("spiritually", materially I prefer night).
Doors, isn't soul searching the same thing as dwelling on darkness?

Remember what I wrote earlier about symbolism and language being the way that we convey/share meaning between minds? If you limit yourself to your own private set of symbolism, how can you convey/share your ideas with others? You would be speaking gibberish from the viewpoint of others.

I'm making an effort to learn different symbolism systems/languages in order expand the sphere of those with whom I can share and learn, because I need and appreciate all of the help I can get. If someone else has something worthwhile to share, why would I disparage them because we don't speak the same language, calling it pseudo-intellectual crap? Are you certain that you are really searching out the light of understanding? I can only look at the signs and symptoms, and try to shed some light on what I see. Only you can examine closely for yourself to see if it is true.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Once again avoiding to actually show where I said my symbolism is better, right, etc. Probably because your whole attack rests on points I never made. Of course the symbolism of others is important, I study it beyond obsession. But for some reason me not personally desiring to use black flame symbolism made you flip out. Get over it.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Once again avoiding to actually show where I said my symbolism is better, right, etc. Probably because your whole attack rests on points I never made. Of course the symbolism of others is important, I study it beyond obsession. But for some reason me not personally desiring to use black flame symbolism made you flip out. Get over it.
LOL, I'm not flipping out. I've quoted you where you put the symbol of the black flame to the same class as the symbol of the Christian cross. I just held up the mirror to you in order to show how your behavior compares to the Christians that you brought into the discussion. If you don't want to classify such absolute behaviours such as outright rejection, entrenchment by employing such terms as "100% unrelated" and "technically everything is meaningless," before giving it some thought as being close minded, I don't know what else I can say.
 
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1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Your post did seem 100% irrelevant, in fact it still does. And technically I do believe everything is meaningless. Meaning is created, not objective. So I'm not sure why you're so offended. Actually, I fimd it more offensive you assume mention of the Christian cross is an insult. Everyone in this DIR goes on and on about the black flame, all I was saying is it's becoming some heart symbol of the LHP like the cross is to Christianity, and that it's really not important to me. So chill. I won't apologize for not sharing some common symbol that means nothing to me.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Your post did seem 100% irrelevant, in fact it still does. And technically I do believe everything is meaningless. Meaning is created, not objective. So I'm not sure why you're so offended.
Dude, I'm not offended. I'm concerned, however.
Actually, I fimd it more offensive you assume mention of the Christian cross is an insult.
There, you just admitted that you are the one who is offended. You are trying to project that offense onto me.
Everyone in this DIR goes on and on about the black flame, all I was saying is it's becoming some heart symbol of the LHP like the cross is to Christianity, and that it's really not important to me. So chill. I won't apologize for not sharing some common symbol that means nothing to me.
Not sharing symbolism is not the same as disparaging it. You don't need to apologize for not sharing it. However, if you start disparaging it, some closer examination might be warranted, imo.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Good thing I didn't :facepalm:

And I'm not offended, I said it's more offensive to associate the cross with insult. Straw men, ad hominem, all for no possible reason other than not finding the black flame important. What a joke.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Good thing I didn't :facepalm:

And I'm not offended, I said it's more offensive to associate the cross with insult. Straw men, ad hominem, all for no possible reason other than not finding the black flame important. What a joke.
Dontcha just love the limits of text communication, lol? When you use such phrases as "what a joke" people just might take it as being disparaging.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Doors, I apologize. My aversion to absolutes might have influenced me see something that might not have been there. {Danged biases!} :eek:
 

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
The "black flame" is a term given to a metaphysical philosophy or idea embraced by certain magicians of a particular discipline. The christian cross is a symbol which represents a certain philosophy of life just as the pentagram is a symbol which represents a particular life philosophy. They both, like any other symbol, have no real meaning or power outside of the human mind. I think it is true that nothing has any real meaning outside of the mind's perception as it is we magicians that give every "magical" and/or religious symbol or implement their respective significance and powers.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
 
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1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
The "black flame" is a term given to a metaphysical philosophy or idea embraced by certain magicians of a particular discipline. The christian cross is a symbol which represents a certain philosophy of life just as the pentagram is a symbol which represents a particular life philosophy. They both, like any other symbol, have no real meaning or power outside of the human mind. I think it is true that nothing has any real meaning outside of the mind's perception as it is we magicians that give every "magical" and/or religious symbol or implement their respective significance and powers.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I await Crossfire's onslaught.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
LOL. You might be waiting for a while. I think I'm over it. {You might need to test me with some strong absolutist generalizations though, just to make sure.} :p

Wouldn't hold your breath since I never made one in this thread. Maybe try hallucinating it again.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The "black flame" is a term given to a metaphysical philosophy or idea embraced by certain magicians of a particular discipline. The christian cross is a symbol which represents a certain philosophy of life just as the pentagram is a symbol which represents a particular life philosophy. They both, like any other symbol, have no real meaning or power outside of the human mind. I think it is true that nothing has any real meaning outside of the mind's perception as it is we magicians that give every "magical" and/or religious symbol or implement their respective significance and powers.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

To be honest, as I progress I either find these symbols much more hollow or meaningless. There is a political element to most religious movements and these marks have much more meaning there for galvanizing like-minded folks than in ritual use. I use pentagrams of both flavors because I understand what they mean to me. An upright pentagram is a symbol affiliated with the micro/macrocosm and natural order, but the the inverted to me is a symbol of freedom from the entrenched dogma and power to act. The effect of a symbol comes down to an equation:

Symbol + Meaning + Will = Effect

All symbols that are not "utilized" are props and worthless junk. Trinkets as it were. I may use Christian symbols when dealing with a spirit or entity that I know is attracted to them, but they do nothing for me personally. If one was building a shrine or altar to a a biblical creature one doesn't load it up with black candles and lancets. What one does has to fit the nature of the work. Likewise, if I coated said altar or table in the things that I enjoy they would probably put off or weaken the power of the work. When you're inviting a guest always do it the way you'd do it when you're in business -- meet them in the middle and try to make it feel like home. It always works better... Always...
 
To be honest, as I progress I either find these symbols much more hollow or meaningless.
Progress in what way?

All symbols that are not "utilized" are props and worthless junk. Trinkets as it were. I may use Christian symbols when dealing with a spirit or entity that I know is attracted to them, but they do nothing for me personally. If one was building a shrine or altar to a a biblical creature one doesn't load it up with black candles and lancets. What one does has to fit the nature of the work. Likewise, if I coated said altar or table in the things that I enjoy they would probably put off or weaken the power of the work. When you're inviting a guest always do it the way you'd do it when you're in business -- meet them in the middle and try to make it feel like home. It always works better... Always...
Symbols are assigned meaning through us, not the other way around. Obviously the more knowledgeable one is concerning Symbology the deeper the meanings are to them. Deification, personifications, totemism, etc. are all archetypal imagery buried in our unconsciousness . . . brought into conscious awareness by way of this Symbology . . . but it is still 'we' who assign their meanings.
 
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Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Progress in what way?

Symbols are assigned meaning through us, not the other way around. Obviously the more knowledgeable one is concerning Symbology the deeper the meanings are to them. Deification, personifications, totemism, etc. are all archetypal imagery buried in our unconsciousness . . . brought into conscious awareness by way of this Symbology . . . but it is still 'we' who assign their meanings.


I think at a very low level they serve as a catalyst, but I find that I don't need them. I rarely need a proper ritual anymore -- actually I feel funny doing them. After time you can manipulate these energies at will and your magickal muscle memory kicks in. You neither need the rite, the words, or the clothes. If I considered myself an atheist I probably more be concerned with some of the psycho-dramatic elements of them, but there is a difference between a trans-formative process and something that actually manipulates forces outside of ones being. I find that in the later case the psychological impression of the symbolism on me directly matters far less.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
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