The Birth of Yahweh

[blü 2]

The "earliest deity in history" communed with Adam. Yahweh/Jesus.

Not according to history and archaeology.

As I pointed out, the god of the Tanakh, Yahweh, doesn't appear until 1500 BCE or later. The Sumerian goddess Inanna we can place in the 3rd millennium BCE, along with the other gods of Sumer, and the gods of Egypt.

We also infer religious practices at the Çatal Hüyük civilization in Anatolia (now in Turkey) which dates back to 7000 BCE, but we don't know which gods were involved. (There are some fairly strong clues that a major deity is the same god as worshiped later in the Minoan culture on Crete, whose symbol was a bull.)

And there's the excavation at Göbekli Tepe in Turkey, a religious center dated to 12,000 BCE, but again we don't know the gods involved. One photo on that link shows a pillar of square cross section with a bull carved on it. Roughly that shape of pillar, often with bull's horns one on each side, and painted red, is found in Çatal Hüyük and on Crete.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Not according to history and archaeology.

As I pointed out, the god of the Tanakh, Yahweh, doesn't appear until 1500 BCE or later. The Sumerian goddess Inanna we can place in the 3rd millennium BCE, along with the other gods of Sumer, and the gods of Egypt.

We also infer religious practices at the Çatal Hüyük civilization in Anatolia (now in Turkey) which dates back to 7000 BCE, but we don't know which gods were involved. (There are some fairly strong clues that a major deity is the same god as worshiped later in the Minoan culture on Crete, whose symbol was a bull.)

And there's the excavation at Göbekli Tepe in Turkey, a religious center dated to 12,000 BCE, but again we don't know the gods involved. One photo on that link shows a pillar of square cross section with a bull carved on it. Roughly that shape of pillar, often with bull's horns one on each side, and painted red, is found in Çatal Hüyük and on Crete.

The Bible is history, it records the earliest events on Earth. You have "history and archaeology" plus a redacted Bible taken from the abuses of liberal scholarship.

My prior remark was somewhat facetious but also factual.

 

[sayak83]

The Bible is history, it records the earliest events on Earth. You have "history and archaeology" plus a redacted Bible taken from the abuses of liberal scholarship.

My prior remark was somewhat facetious but also factual.

Bible is part myth, part religious and political propaganda of various groups and people, quite far removed from historical truth.

 

[blü 2]

The Bible is history, it records the earliest events on Earth. You have "history and archaeology" plus a redacted Bible taken from the abuses of liberal scholarship.

My prior remark was somewhat facetious but also factual.

I just set out our present best understanding of this part of ancient history, based on all the evidence of archaeology and history.

There's no record of Yahweh till after 1500 BCE. There are records naming other gods many many centuries before that. There's good evidence of gods for which we have no name, going back 12,000 years.

Nothing 'liberal' about that scholarship ─ just a straightforward account of what expert opinion makes of the data. Besides, you could see for yourself the photos I linked ─ they're not making things up.

 

[Muffled]

I believe how GOd shows up in history is irrelevant because He still places Himself at the beginning doing the creating.

 

[blü 2]

I believe how GOd shows up in history is irrelevant because He still places Himself at the beginning doing the creating.

Or Herself? Or Themselves?

It seems pretty clear that gods evolve too. You can trace the rise of Yahweh through the bible, from one Bronze Age deity among many to declarations of his jealousy of the others and claims of his preeminence, to his arrival at monogod status.

Or the endurance of the Goddess, it can be argued, from the unnamed goddess worshiped at Çatal Hüyük from perhaps 7000 BCE to Inanna of the Sumerians, perhaps from 5000 BCE, certainly from the third millennium BCE, to Babylonian Ishtar to Greek Hekate and so on.

Look at the place the (much much milder) BVM holds in the RCC.

Indeed, in practice it can be very difficult to distinguish the more famous saints (from among the 13,000 or more) of the RCC from polytheism, despite the clear theological distinctions.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Bible is part myth, part religious and political propaganda of various groups and people, quite far removed from historical truth.

I didn't know! Thanks! I can save a lot of time and not spend another 20 years studying it. I was almost to the point where I'd culled a fraction of a fraction of all the goodness within--what a waste of time!

Thanks so much for changing my worldview with your fact-based, insightful post. Praise Jesus! You saved me so much time going forward... thanks again!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I just set out our present best understanding of this part of ancient history, based on all the evidence of archaeology and history.

There's no record of Yahweh till after 1500 BCE. There are records naming other gods many many centuries before that. There's good evidence of gods for which we have no name, going back 12,000 years.

Nothing 'liberal' about that scholarship ─ just a straightforward account of what expert opinion makes of the data. Besides, you could see for yourself the photos I linked ─ they're not making things up.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I have written in 2017 about some things I experienced in 1990. That would make the earliest writing extant in 2017 but I accurately described things that occurred in reality in 1990.

Genesis was written by Moses where he communed with God on a holy mountain. God, who present with Adam and Eve in the person of Jesus, told accurate tales of the events that transpired. Note the first words, IN THE BEGINNING.

I hope this clears it up for you.

 

[Repox]

I had a dream about angels visiting earth, and then reporting to God about a new species (humans) dominating earth. God was not pleased, He wanted nature to remain unmolested after the fall of paradise Subsequently, God intervened (Bible), and we know the rest of the story.

 

[blü 2]

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I have written in 2017 about some things I experienced in 1990. That would make the earliest writing extant in 2017 but I accurately described things that occurred in reality in 1990.

Genesis was written by Moses where he communed with God on a holy mountain. God, who present with Adam and Eve in the person of Jesus, told accurate tales of the events that transpired. Note the first words, IN THE BEGINNING.

I hope this clears it up for you.

If you think every single person living in Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley and China was drowned in or about 2348 BCE despite the rock-solid evidence of history, archaeology and genetics that they were not,

then I'll leave you to it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Bible is part myth, part religious and political propaganda of various groups and people, quite far removed from historical truth.

Can you demonstrate that assertion via textual or contemporaneous evidence?

 

[sayak83]

Can you demonstrate that assertion via textual or contemporaneous evidence?

Not sure what you mean by textual evidence? Here is the analysis of a Biblical scholar. Would this be what you want?
The time of Judeo-Christian writings

 

[BilliardsBall]

If you think every single person living in Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley and China was drowned in or about 2348 BCE despite the rock-solid evidence of history, archaeology and genetics that they were not,

then I'll leave you to it.

Respectfully, it is a strawman argument to pick a Flood date I disbelieve in to discredit it.

"Son of" in the Bible also means notable descendant. Jesus is "the son of David," removed by 14 generations and 1,000 years!

The Bishop of Usher is not my spiritual authority or in my denomination. His dates for the Flood and other events are known canards.

 

[blü 2]

Can you demonstrate that assertion via textual or contemporaneous evidence?

As for myth, the story of Noah's flood is a Sumerian tale with Ziasudra as hero, from not later than the 3rd millennium BCE, passed on the Akkadians in the latter part of that millennium (who called him Uta-Napishti) then to Babylon and so to Canaan.

We have no record of Yahweh until after 1500 BCE. We have the Sumerian story, with many important similarities, in cuneiform from 2000 BCE,

Then the Egyptian captivity and the story of Moses are wholly unsupported by archaeology, such that no pharaoh's reign suits the story, and no records from the Sinai and Israel / Judea fit either.

To that we can add that the story of baby Moses in the bullrushes follows the tale recorded for King Sargon of Akkad (c. 2340 – c. 2284 BCE):

"My mother, the high priestess, conceived; in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me."
​

And a great deal more, of course.

 

[blü 2]

Respectfully, it is a strawman argument to pick a Flood date I disbelieve in to discredit it.

The Bishop of Usher is not my spiritual authority or in my denomination. His dates for the Flood and other events are known canards.

So what date has geology established for the Flood?

And that would have to be confirmed by genetics as well.

I'm not aware of any such information, so I'm interested in your reply.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Not sure what you mean by textual evidence? Here is the analysis of a Biblical scholar. Would this be what you want?
The time of Judeo-Christian writings

I am conversant with YEDP theory since first finding holes in it decades ago as a secular university student forced to study it.

An academic(s) claiming to reveal mystery authors not given in the text, based on language idiosyncracies, is not textual evidence or contemporaneous evidence (another author or documentarian giving details) it's textual criticism.

There are many people out there criticizing the scriptures without evidence from the period. I Can as easily cite different speeches from Lincoln and try to explain there were two to four Lincolns.

 

[sayak83]

I am conversant with YEDP theory since first finding holes in it decades ago as a secular university student forced to study it.

An academic(s) claiming to reveal mystery authors not given in the text, based on language idiosyncracies, is not textual evidence or contemporaneous evidence (another author or documentarian giving details) it's textual criticism.

There are many people out there criticizing the scriptures without evidence from the period. I Can as easily cite different speeches from Lincoln and try to explain there were two to four Lincolns.

I have examined what they say and consider their arguments very convincing. You may disagree and we can debate this here. Do you want to?

 

[blü 2]

The Bible is history, it records the earliest events on Earth. You have "history and archaeology" plus a redacted Bible taken from the abuses of liberal scholarship.

The question is, What's true in reality?:

Whether any purportedly factual statement in the bible is an accurate statement about reality or not is a testable proposition. The statements of the bible have no immunity to falsification when they're wrong, any more than any other ancient document.

When archaeology disagrees with such documents, the facts outweigh the document. Equally, we know a statement in an ancient document is substantially correct if and when history / archaeology confirms it.

That's what reasoned enquiry is all about.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The question is, What's true in reality?:

Whether any purportedly factual statement in the bible is an accurate statement about reality or not is a testable proposition. The statements of the bible have no immunity to falsification when they're wrong, any more than any other ancient document.

When archaeology disagrees with such documents, the facts outweigh the document. Equally, we know a statement in an ancient document is substantially correct if and when history / archaeology confirms it.

That's what reasoned enquiry is all about.

Of course you can test the Bible. For example, God asks people to test Him regarding tithing. I've been fortunate to have done so hundreds of times. Money is nice to have.

Go ahead, pick the Bible church of your choice and tithe. TEST HIM.

 

[blü 2]

Of course you can test the Bible. For example, God asks people to test Him regarding tithing. I've been fortunate to have done so hundreds of times. Money is nice to have.

This is the same god as brought the Holocaust on his Chosen People, right? You're saying they all died rich, though, so it was okay?

Go ahead, pick the Bible church of your choice and tithe. TEST HIM.

That's the snake oil salesman, no? Get your god here, ladies and gents, a lousy 10% of your income, and comes with eternal life or your money back!