The Biggest Question

[Ellen Brown]

I'm Western, American, White Privilege, from po white trash roots. Once it was clear to me that there was a Creator, it was clear that pleasing him was my life task.

It seems clear that the God of Abraham, is the one. There is no intention to criticise any other belief system but they aren't for me, and my time is running out.

If I knew everything I wanted to know there would be no hesitation. Still in the early stages of reading Judaism, I can't draw any conclusions yet.

For now, for me, the biggest question is who is Jesus? Many Christians say that if I do not accept Jesus as the son of God, I will go to Hell. Sadly, those who are adamant about Jesus being the Christ, the Savior, often reject and condemn me because they don't get forgiveness due to contriteness and repentance. May the Creator have mercy. I wish that the God of Jesus had given him better representatives.

I'm most comfortable being Muslim because of the Modesty and the absolute adoration of the Creator Allah SWT. I have nothing to do with Muslims that fight and kill. Who are they? Muslims have varying ideas about Jesus (Isa Peace Be Unto Him) I think the prevailing belief is that he was the best Prophet, and came to Earth to do only the will of Allah SWT, and what Allah SWT told him to do. There may be more but that's the high points.

To my understanding, Muslims regard the Trinity as Idol worship because there can be no Son of God.

So, there's the rub. Maybe I'll meet Allah SWT in honest ignorance?

 

[Axe Elf]

I do believe in Jesus as the physical aspect of God, just as my body is the physical aspect of my own triune nature (mind/soul or "Father," body or "Son" and "Spirit"). I do also believe that the only reason anyone is ever able to enter into the presence of God is because Jesus bridged the gap between the selfish nature of man and the loving nature of God. This squares with Jesus being "the Way," and no man coming to the Father except by Him. It also squares with the tearing of the veil in the temple at the time of Jesus' death, signifying that the common man was no longer separated from the place of God (the "Holy of Holies").

That said, I'm not convinced that one has to recognize that Jesus is the reason that they are able to enter into the presence of God--however they may conceive of God. It's entirely possible that people can now enter into the presence of God and never know why they are allowed to do so, or recognize Jesus and His sacrifice as that reason.

So I'm willing to say that Jesus, as the physical expression of God, is the reason we are able to enter into the presence of God, but I am not willing to say that the only way to enter into the presence of God is to acknowledge Jesus as the reason. That would mean that no one other than Christians would ever be able to enter into the presence of God, and I'm not willing to draw that exclusive conclusion. I know that Christianity is the framework within which I am most comfortable experiencing God, but I'm not willing to say that it is the only valid framework for experiencing God.

 

[Trackdayguy]

I'm Western, American, White Privilege, from po white trash roots. Once it was clear to me that there was a Creator, it was clear that pleasing him was my life task.

It seems clear that the God of Abraham, is the one. There is no intention to criticise any other belief system but they aren't for me, and my time is running out.

If I knew everything I wanted to know there would be no hesitation. Still in the early stages of reading Judaism, I can't draw any conclusions yet.

For now, for me, the biggest question is who is Jesus? Many Christians say that if I do not accept Jesus as the son of God, I will go to Hell. Sadly, those who are adamant about Jesus being the Christ, the Savior, often reject and condemn me because they don't get forgiveness due to contriteness and repentance. May the Creator have mercy. I wish that the God of Jesus had given him better representatives.

I'm most comfortable being Muslim because of the Modesty and the absolute adoration of the Creator Allah SWT. I have nothing to do with Muslims that fight and kill. Who are they? Muslims have varying ideas about Jesus (Isa Peace Be Unto Him) I think the prevailing belief is that he was the best Prophet, and came to Earth to do only the will of Allah SWT, and what Allah SWT told him to do. There may be more but that's the high points.

To my understanding, Muslims regard the Trinity as Idol worship because there can be no Son of God.

So, there's the rub. Maybe I'll meet Allah SWT in honest ignorance?

Love your honesty... You're a star.

 

[oldbadger]

I'm Western, American, White Privilege, from po white trash roots. Once it was clear to me that there was a Creator, it was clear that pleasing him was my life task.

Hello Ellen. Can I, a Deist, join this circle?
I come from English mid-class roots, which I tore up and threw down for a simple life.

It seems clear that the God of Abraham, is the one. There is no intention to criticise any other belief system but they aren't for me, and my time is running out.

Fair enough. It seems clear to me that everything that exists in any form is a part of God, but a God so unimaginably vast that we humans on this little planet are not even noticed. I don't feel any more special than our pets or the garden sparrows.

For now, for me, the biggest question is who is Jesus? Many Christians say that if I do not accept Jesus as the son of God, I will go to Hell. Sadly, those who are adamant about Jesus being the Christ, the Savior,.....

I've studied historical Jesus for many years now, and it seems clear to me that both the Baptist and he were Jews who campaigned for an end to Temple and Priesthood corruption.
How Christianity got spun out of their lives is just amazing.

I'm most comfortable being Muslim because of the Modesty and the absolute adoration of the Creator Allah SWT.

Fair enough.

To my understanding, Muslims regard the Trinity as Idol worship because there can be no Son of God.

The early Christian evangelists needed to sell this religion to Romans, and a Triple God with a Female Deity did help Christianity to reverse itself in to and amongst the people. Christianity reversed itself in to many European cultures.

So, there's the rub. Maybe I'll meet Allah SWT in honest ignorance?

We are all ignorant, some honestly, some dishonestly.
May you be happy and content in your searches and your life

 

[74x12]

For now, for me, the biggest question is who is Jesus?

We'll just say that you can find the whole gospel in the Jewish scriptures if you know where to look. He is the Messiah of the Jews.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Hello Ellen. Can I, a Deist, join this circle?
I come from English mid-class roots, which I tore up and threw down for a simple life.


Fair enough. It seems clear to me that everything that exists in any form is a part of God, but a God so unimaginably vast that we humans on this little planet are not even noticed. I don't feel any more special than our pets or the garden sparrows.


I've studied historical Jesus for many years now, and it seems clear to me that both the Baptist and he were Jews who campaigned for an end to Temple and Priesthood corruption.
How Christianity got spun out of their lives is just amazing.


Fair enough.


The early Christian evangelists needed to sell this religion to Romans, and a Triple God with a Female Deity did help Christianity to reverse itself in to and amongst the people. Christianity reversed itself in to many European cultures.


We are all ignorant, some honestly, some dishonestly.
May you be happy and content in your searches and your life

Yes, I have not understood how Christianity came from Jesus the Jew. As you say, where did the Original Sin, Trinity, Transubstantiation, Atonement, and so on. I think that one of the Apostles wanted the followers of Jesus to become Jews. What we were eventually saddled with was weird, just weird. I don't understand Paul essentially taking over the Church. Later, what would become the early Catholic church would pile rules on top of rituals and it soon became unrecognizable.

The Canonization of the Bible was a completely flawed journey.

Later, the early Muslims would follow Muhammad PBUH, and after his death would abandon his practices. In our day, the Quran takes a back seat to the Fatwas and the Hadeeth.

Pondering, pondering.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yes, I have not understood how Christianity came from Jesus the Jew. As you say, where did the Original Sin, Trinity, Transubstantiation, Atonement, and so on. I think that one of the Apostles wanted the followers of Jesus to become Jews. What we were eventually saddled with was weird, just weird. I don't understand Paul essentially taking over the Church. Later, what would become the early Catholic church would pile rules on top of rituals and it soon became unrecognizable.

The Canonization of the Bible was a completely flawed journey.

Later, the early Muslims would follow Muhammad PBUH, and after his death would abandon his practices. In our day, the Quran takes a back seat to the Fatwas and the Hadeeth.

Pondering, pondering.

Question from the bleachers (but a respectful one).
Does this mean that something like a Quranist position makes most sense to you?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Pondering, pondering

In pondering with a pure kindly and radiant heart, Allah is always with you giving you choices and pointing the way.

The key is to know what is from the Unconstrained and what is from our own selves. That is our journey in this life.

Regards Tony

 

[Ellen Brown]

Question from the bleachers (but a respectful one).
Does this mean that something like a Quranist position makes most sense to you?

Reply from the uncertain one: I see considerable wisdom in the position of Quran only, where both Hadith and Fatwa are disgarted.

 

[Tumah]

We'll just say that you can find the whole gospel in the Jewish scriptures if you know where to look. He is the Messiah of the Jews.

You can find anything in Jewish Scriptures if you're taking the eisegetic route. It's when you're going the exegesis route that's when it becomes tricky.

 

[Ellen Brown]

You can find anything in Jewish Scriptures if you're taking the eisegetic route. It's when you're going the exegesis route that's when it becomes tricky.

Shalom:

I am still reading, considering and praying about Judaism. I have already learned things from my instruction that I had not considered before, a different way to see things.

I did not immediately see that you were speaking of two different words. Very clever.

Ellen

 

[Rival]

I find it interesting how more and more people are coming out about having problems with the Trinity. Unitarian movements are growing and more people seem to be turning to Islam than Christianity and a big reason seems to be because of the, dare I say this tired phrase, pure monotheism.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I find it interesting how more and more people are coming out about having problems with the Trinity. Unitarian movements are growing and more people seem to be turning to Islam than Christianity and a big reason seems to be because of the, dare I say this tired phrase, pure monotheism.

Well what can be said.

Its a good observation!

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, I have not understood how Christianity came from Jesus the Jew. As you say, where did the Original Sin, Trinity, Transubstantiation, Atonement, and so on. I think that one of the Apostles wanted the followers of Jesus to become Jews. What we were eventually saddled with was weird, just weird. I don't understand Paul essentially taking over the Church. Later, what would become the early Catholic church would pile rules on top of rituals and it soon became unrecognizable.

The Canonization of the Bible was a completely flawed journey.

Later, the early Muslims would follow Muhammad PBUH, and after his death would abandon his practices. In our day, the Quran takes a back seat to the Fatwas and the Hadeeth.

Pondering, pondering.

Thankyou for your reply, Ellen.
I agree with you about Christianity. If the Baptist and Jesus could both see what became of their campaigns for fair redemption rather than by extortion, they would either laugh their heads off or bristle with anger........ nope..... they would bristle with anger, because it all just led to more deception and extortion.

But I don't mind Christianity when it leads to kindness, love, compassion and understanding as can bre the case with many Christian groups.

....and I don't know anything about Islam, Muhammad, the Hadiths and the Quoran. .

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm Western, American, White Privilege, from po white trash roots. Once it was clear to me that there was a Creator, it was clear that pleasing him was my life task.

It seems clear that the God of Abraham, is the one. There is no intention to criticise any other belief system but they aren't for me, and my time is running out.

If I knew everything I wanted to know there would be no hesitation. Still in the early stages of reading Judaism, I can't draw any conclusions yet.

For now, for me, the biggest question is who is Jesus? Many Christians say that if I do not accept Jesus as the son of God, I will go to Hell. Sadly, those who are adamant about Jesus being the Christ, the Savior, often reject and condemn me because they don't get forgiveness due to contriteness and repentance. May the Creator have mercy. I wish that the God of Jesus had given him better representatives.

I'm most comfortable being Muslim because of the Modesty and the absolute adoration of the Creator Allah SWT. I have nothing to do with Muslims that fight and kill. Who are they? Muslims have varying ideas about Jesus (Isa Peace Be Unto Him) I think the prevailing belief is that he was the best Prophet, and came to Earth to do only the will of Allah SWT, and what Allah SWT told him to do. There may be more but that's the high points.

To my understanding, Muslims regard the Trinity as Idol worship because there can be no Son of God.

So, there's the rub. Maybe I'll meet Allah SWT in honest ignorance?

If you believe in Muhammad then the Quran is just as much a guide as the Gospels. IMHO the error Christians make is they fail to recognise Muhammad as a Messenger of God. The error Muslims make is they reject the Gospels and Torah as corrupted and superseded despite these two books being highly praised many times throughout the Quran. If you can reconcile the Quran, New Testament and Hebrew Bible then the answer about who Jesus is becomes much clearer. All the best.

 

[Angelus5884]

I do believe in Jesus as the physical aspect of God, just as my body is the physical aspect of my own triune nature (mind/soul or "Father," body or "Son" and "Spirit"). I do also believe that the only reason anyone is ever able to enter into the presence of God is because Jesus bridged the gap between the selfish nature of man and the loving nature of God. This squares with Jesus being "the Way," and no man coming to the Father except by Him. It also squares with the tearing of the veil in the temple at the time of Jesus' death, signifying that the common man was no longer separated from the place of God (the "Holy of Holies").

That said, I'm not convinced that one has to recognize that Jesus is the reason that they are able to enter into the presence of God--however they may conceive of God. It's entirely possible that people can now enter into the presence of God and never know why they are allowed to do so, or recognize Jesus and His sacrifice as that reason.

So I'm willing to say that Jesus, as the physical expression of God, is the reason we are able to enter into the presence of God, but I am not willing to say that the only way to enter into the presence of God is to acknowledge Jesus as the reason. That would mean that no one other than Christians would ever be able to enter into the presence of God, and I'm not willing to draw that exclusive conclusion. I know that Christianity is the framework within which I am most comfortable experiencing God, but I'm not willing to say that it is the only valid framework for experiencing God.

Hello there hope your are doing well?

You said you are convinced that Jesus is God. Can you provide evidence that Jesus peace be uppon him said I am God or I am the son the God? Be cause I read the bible and haven’t come across anything that Jesus portrayed himself as God or son of God.

 

[74x12]

You can find anything in Jewish Scriptures if you're taking the eisegetic route. It's when you're going the exegesis route that's when it becomes tricky.

You can never do a proper exegesis of the scriptures; until you realize that every author no matter who he is; has this one thing in common. They're guided by the Spirit of God. Otherwise their writings wouldn't belong in the Bible.

That means that secular exegesis is not enough to understand the scriptures. A secular view of the scriptures is only to try to understand the human writer. To truly understand; you must do exegesis with the aim in mind to understand the thoughts of God Himself.

However, this is impossible without God's help.

 

[74x12]

As you say, where did the Original Sin, Trinity, Transubstantiation, Atonement, and so on. I think that one of the Apostles wanted the followers of Jesus to become Jews.

Original sin is when satan became proud. Original sin for humans is when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Since then we've been born with sinful nature. This is what God said "after their kind" In other words all creatures beget offspring after their own kind. Unfortunately for us because Adam and Eve sinned; they beget after their own kind. Children who are also prone to sinful ways. But, we're all guilty of our own sins.

Trinity is just man's way of explaining God's nature. I don't agree with the "three persons in God" trinity doctrine.

• God is the Father because He creates
• God is the Son through Jesus because He was incarnate
• God is the holy Spirit because God is a Spirit and is holy.

Transubstantiation is Catholic misunderstanding of Jesus' Words. Jesus was speaking of spiritual things but of course they made it literal. What Jesus meant is that by giving His body(symbolically the bread) to be broken on the cross and by giving His blood(symbolically the wine). He would establish a "new Covenant" and save people and cleanse sins. But Catholics make the physical wine and the bread literally into Jesus. It's just silly to be honest.

Atonement is just God's way of making up for our sins. Even the Jews believe in atonement which is why they celebrate Yom Kippur. The day of atonement every year. They believe that by fasting one day a year and blowing trumpets etc. Their sins are atoned for that year.

But one thing Jews can't explain is how they are forgiven. Every small sin in the Torah is forgiven through a sacrifice. Either a cow, goat, sheep or pigeon etc. But there are no sacrifices for big sins. None.

Yet Jews claim they are forgiven. How?

For Adonai the God of the Hebrews to be consistent; the only answer is that they are not noticing some greater sacrifice. This sacrifice is indeed in the scriptures. It is the Messiah Jesus.

What we were eventually saddled with was weird, just weird.

Sure if you listen to man made doctrines and don't focus on what God has said in His own scriptures.

I don't understand Paul essentially taking over the Church.

He didn't take over the church. They sent Paul to the gentiles because they were busy teaching the Jewish believers. Eventually there ended up being more gentile converts than Jewish ones. So naturally Paul became one of the most influential apostles in history.

Later, what would become the early Catholic church would pile rules on top of rituals and it soon became unrecognizable.

True. The Catholic church puts their own traditions above the scriptures.

The Canonization of the Bible was a completely flawed journey.

Not really. They took the most popular books of their time that most churches agreed were inspired and they made it official. That doesn't mean the books we have are the only inspired texts but they are the most popular ones that every one could agree on.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Thankyou for your reply, Ellen.
I agree with you about Christianity. If the Baptist and Jesus could both see what became of their campaigns for fair redemption rather than by extortion, they would either laugh their heads off or bristle with anger........ nope..... they would bristle with anger, because it all just led to more deception and extortion.

But I don't mind Christianity when it leads to kindness, love, compassion and understanding as can bre the case with many Christian groups.

....and I don't know anything about Islam, Muhammad, the Hadiths and the Quoran. .

Shalom:

I am not a person who is degreed in Religious Studies, but merely one who reads a lot and has been both Christian and Muslim. These days my sentiments lie more closely with Islam. From my own personal experience, it seems that the Christian experience has not led toward true fear of the Creator, and love for each other. Will I become a Jew? I don't know, because I seek only as much knowledge about the Creator as he will permit.

 

[Axe Elf]

You said you are convinced that Jesus is God. Can you provide evidence that Jesus peace be uppon him said I am God or I am the son the God? Be cause I read the bible and haven’t come across anything that Jesus portrayed himself as God or son of God.

Oh certainly! I'm always happy to help out a beginner (although I'm sure if you kept reading, you'd have found it yourself eventually).

It sounds like you're not interested in any of the non-Gospel scriptural references to Jesus being God (such as his name being called Immanuel--"God with us"--in Isaiah 7:14, or "Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6)--you're only interested in Jesus portraying Himself as God or the Son of God, right?

So the clearest reference is probably in John 10:30, where Jesus plainly states, "I and the Father are one." I've heard some people mistakenly say that Jesus wasn't calling Himself God here; He was just saying that He and the Father were in agreement. But that's not how his Jewish audience understood Him--they took up rocks to stone Him for blasphemy! And when Jesus asked them why they would stone Him, they said, "because You, a mere Man, make Yourself [out to be] God" (v. 33). And Jesus didn't argue with them, or say, "No I don't!" because their accusation was accurate--He really was claiming to be God.

A couple of chapters before that, the Jews were ready to stone Him for portraying Himself as God in another way--calling Himself the same "I Am" that Jehovah used to refer to Himself in Exodus 3:14 (John 8:58). But Jesus slipped away before they could execute Him for blasphemy.

So those are the two best cases of Jesus calling Himself God, although there are other cases in which He is called God by the people around Him--and He accepts their worship rather than correcting them, thus implying that He is portraying Himself as being worthy of their worship as God. In Matthew 14, when Jesus calmed a storm in a boat, His disciples said, "Truly, you are the Son of God!" And Jesus didn't say, "Oh come on; I'm just a man like the rest of you!" Knowing that He was the Son of God, He accepted their worship as such.

When Thomas doubted the appearance of Jesus after the resurrection, and Jesus had Thomas touch His wounds, Thomas declared His identity--"My Lord and my God!" Again, Jesus didn't say, "Oh stop!" He said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." So again, it's pretty obvious Jesus is portraying Himself as God, even if He's not saying the words Himself.

I hope that's enough to get you started; let me know if I can be of any further assistance!