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The big bang, something from nothing?

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Its hard to imagine the stuff of the universe being eternal. The lowest entropy system seems to me would take an awful lot of energy. Where did that energy come from? What would a state of maximum entropy look like? Perhaps the universe works in cycles thus perpetuating its existence. Otherwise an absolute beginning seems necessary. I would sure like to find out. Because an absolute end sure seems likely too.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, I haven’t read any Baha'i texts, but I am guessing that if it quote anything from the Qur’an or from the Genesis, then I am guessing that this Tablet of yours are no better than these creation myths.

And you don’t understand science.

Science is not about knowing all the answers, but seeking answers, which include formulating the explanations and predictions, followed by testing both (eg testing the explanations, predictions, and any equation).

Science is both about knowledge-gathering and evidence-gathering. Science is about testing the knowledge. Science is about explains the WHAT and HOW, not the explanation for the WHO (eg God).

The WHO is only relevant in social science, philosophies and in religions, and with religions, it is only based on belief in superstition and the supernatural.

If the Tablet of the Universe have scientific merits, why haven’t any Baha’i presented this to scientific community?

I am not a scientist; my background is in the engineering fields, but I do understand the values of science that’s behind our current knowledge of technology. And among the values, is the need to test any design or prototype, before actual construction.

You want me to accept and believe your Baha’i Tablet, just by reading it?

Both science and faith both require proofs and both have their foundation to confirm those proofs. I would ask from the other side of the fence as to why the Scientific community has no embraced the knowledge gifted in that tablet?

I do not want you to blindly accept anything. That was not why this document was offered. Personally I see it contains all the answers science is looking for, but science will need to mature.

Science will need to understand that a unity of mind is required to unlock the truths that are already available. It will flounder until it finds this unity.

I am also from an engineering background. In civil works and town planning. I accept that science and religion must work together.

Peace be with you.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
He is not pro string theory or the multiverse per se, but suggest there is energy in empty nothing space, that universes pop in and out of existence all the time

Reading that, wouldn't it imply time and space, though not like we see it, eternal?

Then yes.

In order for the universes to come into existence in this nothingness means an event must occur in the nothingness. For an event to occur in the nothingness, time has to exist in this nothingness. So according to that book, something exists in nothingness.

Cheers to contradictions!
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Any one read the book by Lawrence Krauss "Something From Nothing"?

He is not pro string theory or the multiverse per se, but suggest there is energy in empty nothing space, that universes pop in and out of existence all the time on a quantum scale so fast that it can not be measured and not breaking laws of conservation of energy. But in the big bangs case enough energy and conditions causing the Higgs field kept the universe from collapsing and it became flat, thus inflation began, causing the reaction of creation of matter. That's just a crunched down paragraph of his explanation.

Reading that, wouldn't it imply time and space, though not like we see it, eternal?

Well, spacetime is eternal by definition. Actually, it is not even that, given that eternity assumes a time context in which spacetime should be embedded. Nevertheless, by its very nature, it is a thing that cannot possibly change with time, nor begin, nor die nor coming from.

We do not really need to write a book to justify that. It is entailed in page 2 of every book on relativity.

Ciao

- viole
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Any one read the book by Lawrence Krauss "Something From Nothing"?

He is not pro string theory or the multiverse per se, but suggest there is energy in empty nothing space, that universes pop in and out of existence all the time on a quantum scale so fast that it can not be measured and not breaking laws of conservation of energy. But in the big bangs case enough energy and conditions causing the Higgs field kept the universe from collapsing and it became flat, thus inflation began, causing the reaction of creation of matter. That's just a crunched down paragraph of his explanation.

Reading that, wouldn't it imply time and space, though not like we see it, eternal?

No it wouldn't imply eternity although it is a possibility.

Krauss's book was published in 2011. Here is a later paper on vacuum bubbles.

[1404.1207] Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
The origin of things is tied into a community of knowers ability to discern a thing. When that community of knowers is also a part of "things" then the thing known is also a thing to be known.

All rational systems can fall prey to issues regarding self reference and this seems to be due to the self referential nature of a universe claiming to know itself.

Science has progressed to a point where in its efforts to understand the foundation of things we are feeling the edge of rational systems. Such contradictions as something from nothing are to be expected.

This is where the worlds wisdom traditions come in handy because such weirdness has long been contemplated. Science simply reveals these mysteries in ever more precise and useful forms.

Each of us, in a deep way, is also a something from a nothing. We are, in essence, a mystery, a puzzle of meaning caught in a vast web of other such puzzles. Imagining a God behind it all is simply a very human way of relating to this situation.

One question I ask myself is whether there can be a sharp line between the knowable things and the seemingly unknowable nothing out of which the knowable has arisen. This is analogous to how our consciousness operates on the indirectly perceived framework of the nervous system. Conscious thought arise out of a sea of unconscious thoughts...where precisely does the boundary between the two lie?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The origin of things is tied into a community of knowers ability to discern a thing. When that community of knowers is also a part of "things" then the thing known is also a thing to be known.

All rational systems can fall prey to issues regarding self reference and this seems to be due to the self referential nature of a universe claiming to know itself.

Science has progressed to a point where in its efforts to understand the foundation of things we are feeling the edge of rational systems. Such contradictions as something from nothing are to be expected.

This is where the worlds wisdom traditions come in handy because such weirdness has long been contemplated. Science simply reveals these mysteries in ever more precise and useful forms.

Each of us, in a deep way, is also a something from a nothing. We are, in essence, a mystery, a puzzle of meaning caught in a vast web of other such puzzles. Imagining a God behind it all is simply a very human way of relating to this situation.

One question I ask myself is whether there can be a sharp line between the knowable things and the seemingly unknowable nothing out of which the knowable has arisen. This is analogous to how our consciousness operates on the indirectly perceived framework of the nervous system. Conscious thought arise out of a sea of unconscious thoughts...where precisely does the boundary between the two lie?
and you are able this consideration......
while not considering what it was to be .....the First

Someone had to be....First
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
and you are able this consideration......
while not considering what it was to be .....the First

Someone had to be....First

First is often not what it seems...things arise from multiple influences and in groups rather than singles...certainly life never formed in this way from a single first. Always things arise out of a potential which includes the potential for it to happen again. Likely everything new is a minor variation of what has come before.

In fact this has made me aware of a new understanding of Gods comically working with Adam to find his "helper". The effort that the authors of Genesis went through to steer clear of directly validating the power of nature and the goddess to reduce Eve to an optional sidekick is hilarious. I think, however, that the authors of Genesis were aware of this humor.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One question I ask myself is whether there can be a sharp line between the knowable things and the seemingly unknowable nothing out of which the knowable has arisen. This is analogous to how our consciousness operates on the indirectly perceived framework of the nervous system. Conscious thought arise out of a sea of unconscious thoughts...where precisely does the boundary between the two lie?

That line is the Messenger of God.

Peace be with you.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In fact this has made me aware of a new understanding of Gods comically working with Adam to find his "helper".

God needs no helper, humanity does.

The Mediator between man and God is the Messenger. The Messenger is the primal cause of our existance.

Peace be with you.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Its hard to imagine the stuff of the universe being eternal. The lowest entropy system seems to me would take an awful lot of energy. Where did that energy come from? What would a state of maximum entropy look like? Perhaps the universe works in cycles thus perpetuating its existence. Otherwise an absolute beginning seems necessary. I would sure like to find out. Because an absolute end sure seems likely too.

The first law of thermodynamics is the same as the first law of conservation and that is, that energy can neither be created or destroyed. Therefore, according to this law, energy must be eternal, having neither beginning or end. Energy can be and is converted to that which we perceive as matter. In fact, this material universe at the time of the Big Bang was pure energy, which has been converted to that which we perceive as matter only to be reconverted to its original form as energy during the phase of the Big Crunch.

To those who believe that a universe of mindless matter has produced beings with intrinsic ends, self- replication capabilities, and “coded chemistry”? Then they must now accept that it is the eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that has become this material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that it [The Eternal Energy] has become.

Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, which event spewed out a liquid like soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions of degrees, it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space.

But there was momentum within that ever-cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, which wave particles are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.

One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material.

But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron. As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors} from which the galaxies would later be created.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped.

From those first particles, the first molecules were formed, and after some 300 million years, the massive first generation stars came into being, and from these were created the Galaxies, which some 10 billion years ago, began to be gathered together into galactic clusters by their own gravitational attraction, and those galactic clusters are now seen to being pulled toward The Great Gatherer/Attractor.

The Great Attractor: what is this thing?

The smallest unit of galaxies out there is our local group, comprising the Milky Way, the Andromeda galaxy and about 50 others. The Local Group is in turn part of the Virgo Supercluster containing some 40,000 members. Beyond all this is an unseen object called the Great Attractor which is pulling the Milky Way and all else towards it at the terrific speed of 14 million mph. What is this thing, how far away is it, and what will happen when we reach it? No one knows.

Detailed observations of the galaxies around us indicate that there is superposed on the Hubble flow a large-scale streaming motion of about 600 km/s in the general direction of the constellation Centaurus.

This mass migration includes the Local Group, the Virgo Cluster, the Hydra--Centaurus Supercluster, and other groups and clusters for a distance of at least 60 Mpc up and downstream from us. It is as if a great river of galaxies (including our own) is flowing with a swift current of 600 km/s toward Centaurus.

Calculations indicate that ~1016 solar masses concentrated 65 Mpc away in the direction of Centaurus would account for this. This mass concentration has been dubbed the Great Attractor. Detailed investigation of that region of the galaxy cluster Abell 3627) finds 10 times too little visible matter to account for this flow, again implying a dominant gravitational role for unseen or dark matter. Thus, the Great Attractor is certainly there (because we see its gravitational influence), but the major portion of the mass that must be there cannot be seen in our telescopes.

Enoch, the only man recorded in the Scriptures to have been carried to the throne of the Most High in the creation, and who was anointed as his successor, was then escorted to the ends of time, where he witnessed the universe burn up and fall as massive columns of fire, beyond all measure in height and depth into the GREAT ABYSS, which is described by Enoch, as the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which, there was nothing, not even the space in which the universe had existed.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular EinsteinRosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the star of our solar system, can form a White Dwarf, the gravitational collapse of bigger stars can create a neutron star, as found in the centre of the Crab Nebula, or a Black Hole, depending on its mass, but not necessarily a Worm Hole.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travellers through space, unfortunately, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as there are strong indications that material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics.

But now that it has been discovered through quantum physics that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, perhaps one day new technology may develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct them to their original form, with no damage done.

Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the universe, they could also connect two different universes.

God, [The Eternal Energy] is calling all creation back to himself, after which, he will create for us a new heavens and a new earth.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This mass concentration has been dubbed the Great Attractor.

I have seen it written like this;

"...Divine and all-encompassing Wisdom hath ordained that motion be an inseparable concomitant of existence, whether inherently or accidentally, spiritually or materially. This movement must be governed by some check or rein, some regulator or director, otherwise order will be disrupted and the spheres and bodies will fall from the heavens. For this reason God brought into being a universal attractive force between these bodies to hold sway over them and govern them, a force deriving from the firm ties, the mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the realities of these limitless worlds. By the operation of this attractive force those holy and resplendent suns, with their luminous worlds, satellites and planets, circling and orbiting in their heavens, at once exerted attraction and were subject to it, induced motion and were themselves moved, began orbiting and set into orbit other bodies, shone forth and caused others to shine. In this manner they became arranged in a perfectly ordered system, each one a handiwork of consummate fashioning and manifest beauty, each one an enduring creation and a conclusive proof. Glory be to Him Who attracted them, laid firm hold on them, imbued them with effulgence, ordered them and set them in motion; and far from His glory be that which any of his creatures can affirm of Him or attribute to Him."

This is the link to the remainder;

Tablet of the Universe

I hope that helps.

Peace be with you.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
I have seen it written like this;

"...Divine and all-encompassing Wisdom hath ordained that motion be an inseparable concomitant of existence, whether inherently or accidentally, spiritually or materially. This movement must be governed by some check or rein, some regulator or director, otherwise order will be disrupted and the spheres and bodies will fall from the heavens. For this reason God brought into being a universal attractive force between these bodies to hold sway over them and govern them, a force deriving from the firm ties, the mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the realities of these limitless worlds. By the operation of this attractive force those holy and resplendent suns, with their luminous worlds, satellites and planets, circling and orbiting in their heavens, at once exerted attraction and were subject to it, induced motion and were themselves moved, began orbiting and set into orbit other bodies, shone forth and caused others to shine. In this manner they became arranged in a perfectly ordered system, each one a handiwork of consummate fashioning and manifest beauty, each one an enduring creation and a conclusive proof. Glory be to Him Who attracted them, laid firm hold on them, imbued them with effulgence, ordered them and set them in motion; and far from His glory be that which any of his creatures can affirm of Him or attribute to Him.",

This is the link to the remainder;

Tablet of the Universe

I hope that helps.

Peace be with you.

That is of no help at all my friend, but thank you for trying.

As long as I have the word of God, which our scientific community is beginning to come to terms with, I have need of nothing else.

According to the ancient cultures, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time, a living universal being who is all that exists, and in who, all that is, exists. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy=anti-matter.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

Another universe may have preceded ours, study finds. May 14th, 2006. Courtesy Penn State University and World Science staff.


Three physicists say they have done calculations suggesting that before the birth of our universe, which is expanding, there was an earlier universe that was shrinking.

The results stem from a theory that claims the fabric of space and time is made up of minuscule, indivisible bits, much as matter is.

Scientists believe our cosmos began in a sort of explosion called the Big Bang, when everything that exists---which had previously been packed into one infinitely dense point---burst outward.

The universe is still expanding according to this view, because it was born expanding.

According to some proposals, the Big Bang is a repeating cycle. Universes might expand, then shrink back to a point, then expand again. Thus the “Bang” would be really more like a bounce.

The idea is appealing in some ways, but scientists have found it far from easy to test. Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, a key basis for the Big Bang theory, is silent on what happened before that event.

“General relativity can be used to describe the universe back to a point at which matter becomes so dense that it’s equations don’t hold up,” said Abhay Ashtekar, director of the Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State University in University Park, Penn.

To go further, physicists must use tools Einstein didn’t have, he added. Ashtekar and two post-doctoral researchers developed such tools through a combination of Quantum physics- the science of subatomic particles—and general relativity, which describes the large-scale structure of space and time.

They found that before the Big Bang, there was a contracting universe. Other than the fact it was shrinking, they added, it was similar to ours in terms of the geometry of its space and time, or spacetime, as cosmologists call it since Einstein found the two are interwoven.

“In place of a classical Big Bang there is in fact a quantum bounce,” said Ashtekar. “We were so surprised by the finding,” he added, that the team repeated the calculations for months to include different possible values of some numbers representing the current universe. But the results kept pointing to a bounce.

The findings appear in the current issue of the research journal Physical Review Letters.

While the general idea of another, pre-Big Bang universe isn’t new, Ashtekar said, this is the first mathematical study that systematically establishes its existence and deduces properties of its spacetime geometry.

The notion that spacetime has a geometry involves the idea that it can be curved or flat. A “flat” spacetime is one in which geometry works as we normally expect; for example, parallel lines never meet. But Einstein found that material objects deform this flatness, introducing curvature.

To arrive at their pre-existing universe finding, Ashtekar’s group used loop quantum gravity, a theory that seeks to reconcile General relativity with quantum physics. These two seemingly fundamental theories are otherwise contradictory in some ways.

Loop quantum gravity, which was pioneered at Ashtekar’s institute, proposes that spacetime has a discrete “atomic” structure, as opposed to being a continuous sheet, as Einstein, along with most us, assumed.

In loop quantum gravity, space is thought of as woven from one-dimensional “threads.” The continuum picture remains mostly valid as an approximation. But near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn so that it’s discrete, or quantum, nature becomes important. One outcome of this is that gravity becomes repulsive instead of attractive, Ashetkar argued; the result is the Big Bounce.

Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University, a cosmologist who has explored some related concepts, wrote in an email that the new research “Supports, in a general way, the idea that the Big Bang need not be the beginning of space and time.”

The universe “may have undergone one or more bangs in its past history,” he added.

Steinhardt and colleagues have also proposed a bounce of sorts, but it’s different. It could turn out that the two scenarios are equivalent at some deep level, but that’s not known, he added. Steinhardt‘s scenario makes use of string theory, another attempt to reconcile General Relativity with quantum physics.

Some versions of string theory portray our visible universe as a three -dimensional space embedded in an invisible space having more dimensions. Our zone, called a braneworld-the word comes from its similarity to a sort of membrane-could periodically bounce into another, parallel braneworld.

Such an event might look to us, stuck in a few dimensions as we are, as a Big Bang. “I don’t know if Ashetkar’s case translates into a bounce between braneworlds like we are describing,” Steinhardt wrote. But by his estimate, this cataclysm won’t take place for another roughly 300 billion years—so there is hopefully plenty of time to answer the question.

I would rather a theory which states that there are many galactic clusters out there within the boundless cosmos, each cluster in its own position in Space-time, consisting of billions of Galaxies falling inward toward a Great Abyss, Black Hole, or Bottomless Pit, where, once torn to pieces molecule by molecule, atom by atom, sub-atomic particle by sub-atomic particle, and reconverted into the electromagnetic energy from which they were created and accelerated along the dark worm hole to speeds far, far in excess of the speed of light, where that liquid like Magnetic energy is spewed out in the trillions of degrees, somewhere far beyond the visible horizon of the boundless cosmos, where, from the cooling quantum of that electromagnetic energy a new universe is created, or rather, the old universal body is resurrected, to which the light from its old position in space-time, would take billions upon billions of years to reach it.

But Just as the great thinkers took Copernicus’s theory of the sun centered universe and ran with it, evolving it over the many hundreds and hundreds of years, until it is seen today as the Big Bang theory, which is still in the process of evolution, as more and more data about the universe is gathered by the minds of man, so too, these upcoming theories, which will eventually prove that the great religious minds of thousands and thousands of years ago, who believed the universe eternally oscillates between its two states of visible supposed matter and energy.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The Big Bang no more has to be "something from nothing" than events in the real world have a single, well-delimited cause and a conscious will behind them, or the Earth has to have some sort of solid material support "under her".

All three are stances of human perception biases running well outside their scope of usefulness.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
The Big Bang no more has to be "something from nothing" than events in the real world have a single, well-delimited cause and a conscious will behind them, or the Earth has to have some sort of solid material support "under her".

All three are stances of human perception biases running well outside their scope of usefulness.

According to the atheist scientist Stephen Hawking, the great fireball from which this universe was created, spontaneously appeared out of nothing, because he believed that before the BB there was no time for anything to have existed in.

Stephen Hawking --- “The role played by time at the beginning of the universe is, I believe, the final key to removing the need for a Grand Designer, and revealing how the universe created itself. … Time itself must come to a stop. You can’t get to a time before the big bang, because there was no time before the big bang. We have finally found something that does not have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means there is no possibility of a creator because there is no time for a creator to have existed. Since time itself began at the moment of the Big Bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything. … So when people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the Big Bang, so there is no time for God to make the universe in. It’s like asking for directions to the edge of the Earth. The Earth is a sphere. It does not have an edge, so looking for it is a futile exercise.”​

Of course, one would have to have a lot of faith in Hawking to believe that.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
According to the atheist scientist Stephen Hawking, the great fireball from which this universe was created, spontaneously appeared out of nothing, because he believed that before the BB there was no time for anything to have existed in.

Well he knows his error now.

Peace be with you.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
According to the atheist scientist Stephen Hawking, the great fireball from which this universe was created, spontaneously appeared out of nothing, because he believed that before the BB there was no time for anything to have existed in.

Stephen Hawking --- “The role played by time at the beginning of the universe is, I believe, the final key to removing the need for a Grand Designer, and revealing how the universe created itself. … Time itself must come to a stop. You can’t get to a time before the big bang, because there was no time before the big bang. We have finally found something that does not have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means there is no possibility of a creator because there is no time for a creator to have existed. Since time itself began at the moment of the Big Bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything. … So when people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the Big Bang, so there is no time for God to make the universe in. It’s like asking for directions to the edge of the Earth. The Earth is a sphere. It does not have an edge, so looking for it is a futile exercise.”​

Of course, one would have to have a lot of faith in Hawking to believe that.
Not really. Such a conclusion can easily be reached independently, and probably was many times already.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Not really. Such a conclusion can easily be reached independently, and probably was many times already.

Cosmological theories are formulated by scientists, and theories by definition, are the unproven hypothesis, suppositions, and opinions of those scientists, who, like Hawking are prone to change their minds, leaving those who believed by faith alone, the original theory of those particular scientists, standing out on a shaky limb.

There are as many, if not more scientific theories as to the origin of our universe, as there are differing religious bodies, such as Christianity, Hindu, Abrahamic, Muslim, etc.

Here is but one of many theories as to the creation of our three dimensional universe. This one is by Niayesh Afshordi, an astrophysicist with Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Canada, who proposes that our three-dimensional universe floats as a membrane in a “bulk universe” that has four dimensions and that the “Bulk Universe” has four dimensional stars, which go through the same life cycles as our three dimensional stars.

The most massive ones explode as supernovae, and their central core collapses into a black hole, like in our universe---only in four dimension. The four dimensional black hole has its own four dimensional “Event Horizon,” the boundary between the inside and the outside of a black hole.

In a three dimensional universe, the event horizon appears to be two dimensional. In a four dimensional universe, it appears to be three dimensional. The four dimensional black hole, then blows apart, with the leftover material forming a three dimensional membrane surrounding a three dimensional event horizon, which expands---and is essentially our universe.

So, according to the theory proposed by Niayesh Afshordi, our universe is the vomited-up guts of a fourth dimensional black hole. The expansion of the event horizon explains our universe's expansion; the fact that its creation stems from another 4D universe explains the weird temperature uniformity.

If I were forced to choose between the theory of Afshordi, or that of Hawking, who believes that the energy from which this universe was created, spontaneously appeared out of nothingness, I know which one I would choose.
 
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