1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Bible - Why Trust It

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    35,709
    Ratings:
    +4,996
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Apparently that's not "all you have to do." Who died and made you an authority on Jewish Law? Not all laws are so clear-cut and particular. Ritual washing is commanded by God in the Pentateuch. Hand washing before meals falls in that category.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    13,427
    Ratings:
    +2,029
    I find the Pharisees added their own human ideas to the Law by adding traditions of elders over Scripture as per Mark 7:3

    They were more than just washing hands they were washing up to their elbows.
     
  3. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    35,709
    Ratings:
    +4,996
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Well... that’s in line with the Law. Part of the Law is a ritual, full-body bath. These are ritual washings. I just don’t see anything out of line with the Law in Exodus.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    13,427
    Ratings:
    +2,029
    But Not hand washing hands up to the elbows as the Pharisees were doing.
    They were following added-on traditions of their elders over Scripture - Mark 7:3; Mark 7:5; Mark 7:13
    They were washing hands up to their elbows (hygiene) but Not (spiritual) cleansing of their hearts. - Matthew 15:6-9
     
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    35,709
    Ratings:
    +4,996
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    This doesn’t make sense. Try again plz.
     
  6. Thirza Fallen

    Thirza Fallen Crazy Cat Lady

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    3,211
    Ratings:
    +1,052
    Religion:
    Agnostic Pantheist
    Historical fiction is fascinating.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6,903
    Ratings:
    +1,790
    Religion:
    Unitarian Universalism,Pagan,Zen
    And the movie Superman had President Ronald Reagan in it so I guess Superman is real too.

    Just because some of the people in the Bible were real does not make it true.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6,903
    Ratings:
    +1,790
    Religion:
    Unitarian Universalism,Pagan,Zen
    Before Judaism and Christianity people worshipped nature without the bible .They used the Sun and astrology and did just fine.

    FYI sense you don't think it's possible to worship God without the bible why and how did all the early Christian's do it in the Catholic Church with Priests who taught them and encouraged them not to read the Bible?

    You see your own religion did not need the Bible in the beginning either.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,357
    Ratings:
    +2,069
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Well one thing is for sure, it doesn't make it false.
    It is one aspect of truth, though
    That is why the OP contains this CONFIRMED : The Bible - Historically Accurate.
    So we look at the other aspects. After considering other aspects, it can give us a fairly good idea on how reliable it is.

    Yes, they did just fine in some form of worship, but why do you say they worshiped God? How do you know they did?

    I believe the Bible tells us the way approved by God, in worshiping him. It does outline that those various ways the nations worshiped were false - thus not acceptable to him. It further outlined the truth about God, from its beginning, right through to the end.

    So before persons had a Bible to read for themselves... In fact, let me let them tell their story... (It may seem to be a lot, but it's a great story)
    (Exodus 24:4) So Moses wrote down all the words of Jehovah.. . .
    (Deuteronomy 31:9) . . .Then Moses wrote this Law and gave it to the priests, the Levites, who carry the ark of Jehovah’s covenant, and to all the elders of Israel.
    (Deuteronomy 17:18) . . .When he takes his seat on the throne of his kingdom, he must write for himself in a book a copy of this Law, taken from the one kept by the Levitical priests.
    (Deuteronomy 30:10) . . .For then you will listen to the voice of Jehovah your God and keep his commandments and statutes written in this book of the Law, and you will return to Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul.
    (Joshua 1:8) This book of the Law should not depart from your mouth, and you must read it in an undertone day and night, in order to observe carefully all that is written in it; for then your way will be successful and then you will act wisely.
    (Joshua 24:26) Then Joshua wrote these words in the book of God’s Law. . .
    (1 Samuel 10:25) . . .Samuel spoke to the people about the rightful due of kings and wrote it in a book and deposited it before Jehovah. Then Samuel sent all the people away, everyone to his house.
    (2 Kings 17:36, 37) . . .Jehovah, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and an outstretched arm, is the One you should fear, and to him you should bow down, and to him you should sacrifice. 37 And the regulations, the judgments, the Law, and the commandment that he wrote for you, you should always follow carefully, and you must not fear other gods.
    (1 Chronicles 29:29, 30) 29 As for the history of King David, from beginning to end, it is written among the words of Samuel the seer, Nathan the prophet, and Gad the visionary, 30 together with all his kingship, his mightiness, and the events of the times involving him and Israel and all the surrounding kingdoms.
    (Jeremiah 45:1) . . .This is the word that Jeremiah the prophet spoke to Baruch the son of Neriah when he wrote in a book these words dictated by Jeremiah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah, the king of Judah:
    (Ezra 7:6) . . .This Ezra came up from Babylon. He was a copyist who was well-versed in the Law of Moses, which Jehovah the God of Israel had given. . . .
    (Ezra 7:11) . . .This is a copy of the letter that King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest and copyist, an expert in the study of the commandments of Jehovah and of his regulations to Israel:
    (Nehemiah 8:1) . . .All the people then gathered with one accord at the public square in front of the Water Gate, and they told Ezra the copyist to bring the book of the Law of Moses, which Jehovah had commanded Israel.
    (Nehemiah 13:13) Then I put Shelemiah the priest, Zadok the copyist, and Pedaiah of the Levites in charge of the storerooms, . . .
    (Psalm 45:1) . . .May my tongue be the stylus of a skilled copyist.
    (Jeremiah 36:1, 2) . . .Now in the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah, the king of Judah, this word came to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying: 2 “Take a scroll and write in it all the words that I have spoken to you against Israel and Judah and all the nations, from the first day I spoke to you in the days of Josiah to this day.
    (Jeremiah 36:10) . . .Baruch then read aloud from the scroll the words of Jeremiah at the house of Jehovah, in the chamber of Gemariʹah the son of Shaphan the copyist, in the upper courtyard, at the entrance of the new gate of the house of Jehovah, in the hearing of all the people.(Daniel 7:1) . . .Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream; he recorded a complete account of the matters.
    (Matthew 2:4-6) 4 On gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They said to him: “In Bethlehem of Judea, for this is how it has been written through the prophet: 6 ‘And you, O Bethlehem of the land of Judah, are by no means the most insignificant city among the governors of Judah, for out of you will come a governing one, who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
    (Matthew 4:4) . . .he answered: “It is written. . .
    (Matthew 11:10) . . .This is the one about whom it is written: ‘Look! I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way ahead of you!’
    (Mark 1:2) Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet. . .
    (Mark 9:13) . . .But I say to you that Elijah, in fact, has come, and they did to him whatever they wanted, just as it is written about him.”
    (Luke 4:17-21) 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free, 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” 20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them: “Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.”
    (Luke 24:44) He then said to them: “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.”
    (John 1:45) . . .Philip found Nathanael and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote: Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Nazareth.”
    (John 5:46, 47) 46 In fact, if you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe what I say?”
    (John 20:30, 31) 30 To be sure, Jesus also performed many other signs before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.
    (John 21:24) This is the disciple who gives this witness about these things and who wrote these things, and we know that his witness is true.
    (John 21:25) There are also, in fact, many other things that Jesus did, which if ever they were written in full detail, I suppose the world itself could not contain the scrolls written.
    (Acts 1:20) . . .For it is written in the book of Psalms. . .
    (Acts 7:42) . . .just as it is written in the book of the Prophets. . .
    (1 Thessalonians 2:13) . . .when you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers.
    (2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,(2 Peter 1:21) For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.

    A written record was kept of generations.
    Moses wrote down the words of Jehovah, and copies were made throughout generations.
    Others also wrote down records of reminders and events, and copies made.
    These were later written and kept on scrolls, easier to read and carry.
    Jesus and his apostles used these.
    Apostle Paul wrote letters, and Jesus' apostles as well.


    The Septuagint (from the Latin: septuāgintā literally "seventy"; often abbreviated as 70 in Roman numerals, i.e., LXX; sometimes called the Greek Old Testament) is the earliest extant Koine Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures.
    .........
    The Septuagint was the Koine Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament and was in wide use by the time of Jesus and Paul of Tarsus because most Jews could no longer read Hebrew.

    The Pauline epistles, also called Epistles of Paul or Letters of Paul, are the thirteen books of the New Testament attributed to Paul the Apostle, although authorship of some is in dispute. Among these letters are some of the earliest extant Christian documents.

    The four canonical gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - were probably written between AD 66 and 110

    Codex Sinaiticus or "Sinai Bible" is one of the four great uncial codices, ancient, handwritten copies of the Greek Bible. The codex is a celebrated historical treasure.
    The codex is an Alexandrian text-type manuscript written in uncial letters on parchment in the 4th century. Scholarship considers the Codex Sinaiticus to be one of the best Greek texts of the New Testament, along with the Codex Vaticanus.

    The Vulgate (/ˈvʌlɡeɪt, -ɡət/) is a late-4th-century Latin translation of the Bible that was to become the Catholic Church's officially promulgated Latin version of the Bible during the 16th century, and is still used fundamentally in the Latin Church to this day.

    The Greek New Testament is the original form of the books that make up the New Testament as they appeared in Koine Greek, the common dialect from 300 BC to 300 AD. There are several Greek-language versions of the New Testament that approximate the original form of the New Testament books in Greek.

    HISTORY OF BIBLE TRANSLATIONS

    Was there really a time when people did not have God's word?
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,357
    Ratings:
    +2,069
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    What is quite significant to me @Riders, is that the Hebrew scriptures were actually used by people living in the first century. So there was never a time when persons (Jews) did not have access to God's written word.
    When Jesus (the Messiah) arrived on the scene, he could read these words, and quote them, from all the way back to Moses.
    So people who try to get rid of the so called Old Testament, are really trying to erase a part of history, and that can't happen.

    The same applies to the so called New Testament.
    People today, can read and quote these, which are also an important part of history.

    So really for skeptics they are playing a losing hand, no matter how the cards shuffle.
    Maybe this game is rigged... against them. :)
    I wonder who rigged it. Hmmm.... [​IMG]
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    33,554
    Ratings:
    +19,853
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Your first spoiler fails right at the start. I hate to tell you this, but Moses was a mythical figure. Just because Harry Potter said that a spell could be accomplished does not really tell you that the spell works.
     
  12. Thirza Fallen

    Thirza Fallen Crazy Cat Lady

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    3,211
    Ratings:
    +1,052
    Religion:
    Agnostic Pantheist
    Parts of the Bible are historically accurate. Most of it is not though.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6,903
    Ratings:
    +1,790
    Religion:
    Unitarian Universalism,Pagan,Zen
    People could not read back then so how did they read it only a handful of people living then could read.It was verbal story handed down verbally but not read.People did not read back then.
     
  14. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6,903
    Ratings:
    +1,790
    Religion:
    Unitarian Universalism,Pagan,Zen
    Yes millions of years ago before there was a Bible 10000 years ago we had astrology and Paganism and worshipped nature We didn't need the bible.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Goodman John

    Goodman John Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2019
    Messages:
    257
    Ratings:
    +134
    Religion:
    Cathar
    In my view, the OT is a perfect guide as to how a 'god' should NOT behave. As such, I reject it as a source of religious law or precedent. As for the 'historical' aspects (and this holds for the NT as well), anyone can list cities and places and inject them into a 'sacred text'.

    As for the NT, the parts of it I view as relevant are the Gospels, and those only in the form Thomas Jefferson compiled them into- one cohesive, chronological narrative minus the 'miracle magic show' aspects. The heart of Christianity is what Jesus/Christ taught, and everything else in the NT I regard as commentary only.

    Can the Gospels themselves be trusted as a valid source of learning? Jefferson, a Deist, thought so and so do I. Are the Gospels accurate and 100% truthful as to the events of Jesus' life? I can't say- I wasn't there. BUT even if Jesus was an entirely fictional character, the lessons attributed to him are still very worthwhile and need no divine figure for them to be beneficial.

    Obviously, one can't build a comprehensive spiritual religion from Jesus' lessons alone, though. But even if one has only Jefferson's Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth to go by one can still put together quite a powerful moral and ethical code and a decent outlook on life.
     
  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,357
    Ratings:
    +2,069
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I do? How do you know this?
    I could call this a lie, or I could call it a baseless - not even assumption or claim- (apparently thoughtless) response to useful question.
    Either way, there is no room as far as I can tell, for any progressive response to false statements obviously not well thought out.

    Or maybe there is.
    No. You started first of all, with a baseless... [as I said before], and therefore it explains nothing.
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,357
    Ratings:
    +2,069
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    You refer to many things as myth, but on what basis?
    So, may I ask, what is it that you know, which others don't, so that you know it is a myth?
    You don't know, do you? In fact, the very things you refer to as myth, may very well be true. There is no valid reason to rule them out as myth.

    Take for example, the crucifixion of Christ.
    We know that this is what the Romans did - crucify criminals. We know how exactly they do it, and it is assumed why.
    This method of execution was recorded, in the Bible, in the case of the Messiah.
    You call it a myth, yet historians refer to it as fact. Not just any historian, but one who lived close to Jesus' lifetime, and a Roman, to besides.

    So basically, you argue simply based on personal opinion, rather than any confirmed supportive facts.
    Anyone can do that... but what sense does it make, going back and forth, with my opinion, your opinion [​IMG]?

    Would you for example, go back and forth with this guy.
    [​IMG]

    I think he would probably ask the same question I asked.
    By any chance, are your opinions based on lack of archaeological evidence? Is that it - the "absence of evidence argument"?
    Then see post #1.

    You are aware that some scholars thought the Kingdom of Judah was a myth. What do they think now?
    Baseless opinions move nothing. Contrarily, baseless opinions are moved. They fizz away... like Poof!
    [​IMG]

    If you like, we can discuss how you know these accounts are myths.
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,357
    Ratings:
    +2,069
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    You said most are not, so I take it you probably agree with some in the OP.
    Is this your opinion, or do you have something you can share with us, on the parts you know to be historically accurate, and the parts you know, are not?
    Like, how do you know which parts are not historically accurate, for example.
     
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,357
    Ratings:
    +2,069
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    When you say "people could not read back then", when are you referring to, and how do you know?

    You are saying this based on what proof?
     
  20. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    7,357
    Ratings:
    +2,069
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Thanks for sharing your view.
    My question is, who decides how "a god" should be?
    I can understand, if the 'god' is created, then the one that created it, would decide (Psalm 115:4-9). However, the Bible writers spoke of the true and living God, who has no beginning and no end (Psalm 90:2) - the one who created all things (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 3:4).
    A psalmist said, (Psalm 8:3, 4) 3 When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers, The moon and the stars that you have prepared, 4 What is mortal man that you keep him in mind, And a son of man that you take care of him?

    Some people believe that the God of the Hebrew Bible (O.T.) YHWH / YHVH was created in the minds of men, but how can that be, when the Bible is consistent throughout - from the Hebrew scriptures (Genesis to Malachi) to the Greek scriptures (Matthew to Revelation)?

    Can you show me how that is not true?
    Which part of the Greek scriptures do you find, paint God as different than is mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures?

    I do agree with you, that the teachings of Christ are of greater value than man's wisdom... especially what we see at present.
    However, I do believe the reason for this is because, of the truthfulness of what Jesus said of the source of his teachings.
    (John 7:16, 17) 16 Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality.

    I find what Jesus said in verse 17, is significantly profound.
    To demonstrate how high this knowledge of Jesus is though, we just have to consider his "Sermon on the Mount" of olives. His teaching in verses Matthew 5:43-48 goes against every grain in the human psyche. Yet there it is.
     
Loading...