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Featured The Bible - Why Trust It

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Opinion..................................................................noted.
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Why Trust the Bible
    Part 3 - Foretells the future accurately.

    DANIEL
    Writing completed - about 536 B.C.E
    Period covered - 618 B.C.E. to about 536 B.C.E.

    Authenticity Challenged
    Porphyry of Tyre (/ˈpɔːrfəri/; Greek: Πορφύριος, Porphýrios; Arabic: فرفوريوس‎, Furfūriyūs; c. 234 – c. 305 AD) was a Neoplatonic philosopher who was born in Tyre, in the Roman Empire.


    Against the Christians (Adversus Christianos)

    Porphyry became one of the most able pagan adversaries of Christianity of his day. His aim was not to disprove the substance of Christianity’s teachings but rather the records within which the teachings are communicated.

    According to Jerome, Porphyry especially attacked the prophecy of Daniel because Jews and Christians pointed to the historical fulfillment of its prophecies as a decisive argument. But these prophecies, he maintained, were written not by Daniel but by some Jew who in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes (d. 164 B.C.) gathered up the traditions of Daniel's life and wrote a history of recent past events but in the future tense, falsely dating them back to Daniel's time.

    Daniel did not predict so much future events as he narrated past ones. Finally what he had told up to Antiochus contained true history; if anything was guessed beyond that point it was false, for he had not known the future. (quoted by Jerome)

    The first part of Daniel, with the exception of the dream in Daniel 2, is historic, not prophetic. Porphyry, attacking only the prophetic portion, declares it to be merely a late anonymous narrative of past events, purporting to have been predicted long before by Daniel. Thus Porphyry's scheme was based on the supposed spuriousness of Daniel's prophecies.

    Porphyry devised his own interpretation where the third “prophetic kingdom” was Alexander, and assigned the Macedonian Ptolemies and Seleucids to the fourth kingdom. From among these he chose ten kings, making the eleventh to be Antiochus Epiphanes. In this way he threw his main strength against the book of Daniel, recognizing that if this pillar of faith be shaken, the whole structure of prophecy must tremble. If the writer was not Daniel, then he lied on a frightful scale, ascribing to God prophecies which were never uttered, and making claim of miracles that were never wrought. And if Daniel's authorship could be shown to be false, then Christ Himself would be proved to bear witness to an imposter. (Matt. 24: 15.) Porphyry's thesis was adopted by Edward Gibbon, the English deist Anthony Collins, and most Modernist scholars.
    Augustine and the 5th-century ecclesiastical historian Socrates of Constantinople, assert that Porphyry was once a Christian.


    Challenge Met and Destroyed
    The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the book of Daniel was written prior to the dates asserted.

    The Jewish historian Josephus, stated that the prophecies of Daniel were shown to Alexander the Great when he entered Jerusalem. This occurred in about 332 B.C.E., more than 150 years before the Maccabean period.

    Josephus says of the event: “When the book of Daniel was shown to him, in which he had declared that one of the Greeks would destroy the empire of the Persians, he believed himself to be the one indicated.” (Jewish Antiquities, XI, 337 [viii, 5])

    History also recounts that Alexander bestowed great favors on the Jews, and this is believed to have been because of what Daniel said about him in prophecy.


    Daniel's Prophecy Fulfilled - Alexander the Great Comes To Jerusalem
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Daniel is taken to Babylon.

    2 Kings 24:10-16


    Daniel 1:1-4

    King Nebuchadnezzar effectively became world ruler in 607 B.C.E. when Jehovah God allowed him to destroy Jerusalem and its temple. In the second year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign as world ruler (606/605 B.C.E.), God sent him a terrifying dream.
    (Daniel 2:1, 2)

    1 In the second year of his kingship, Nebuchadnezzar had a number of dreams, and he was so agitated that he could not sleep. 2 So the king gave the order to summon the magic-practicing priests, the conjurers, the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans to tell the king his dreams. . . .


    How could anyone possibly tell someone what they dreamed?
    (Daniel 2:10, 11)
    10 The Chaldeans answered the king: “There is not a man on earth who is able to do what the king demands, for no great king or governor has asked such a thing of any magic-practicing priest or conjurer or Chaldean. 11 What the king is asking is difficult, and no one exists who could tell the king this except the gods, who do not dwell among mortals.”


    (Daniel 2:27, 28)

    27 Daniel replied to the king: “None of the wise men, conjurers, magic-practicing priests, or astrologers are able to tell the king the secret that he is asking. 28 But there is a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what is to happen in the final part of the days. This is your dream, and these are the visions of your head as you lay on your bed:


    Daniel 2:31-45
    Daniel 7, 8




    Daniel 8:1 In the third year of the kingship of King Belshazzar, a vision appeared to me, Daniel...

    Daniel 8:20-22
    20 “The two-horned ram that you saw stands for the kings of Meʹdi·a and Persia. 21The hairy male goat stands for the king of Greece; and the great horn that was between its eyes stands for the first king. 22 As for the horn that was broken, so that four stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up, but not with his power.



    Alexander III of Macedon (20/21 July 356 BC – 10/11 June 323 BC), commonly known as Alexander the Great was a king (basileus) of the ancient Greek kingdom of Macedon and a member of the Argead dynasty.

    Alexander was awarded the generalship of Greece and used this authority to launch his father's pan-Hellenic project to lead the Greeks in the conquest of Persia. In 334 BC, he invaded the Achaemenid Empire (Persian Empire) and began a series of campaigns that lasted ten years.
    Following the conquest of Anatolia, Alexander broke the power of Persia in a series of decisive battles, most notably the battles of Issus and Gaugamela. He subsequently overthrew Persian King Darius III and conquered the Achaemenid Empire in its entirety. At that point, his empire stretched from the Adriatic Sea to the Indus River.

    Ezekiel 26:4, 12
    4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and tear down her towers, and I will scrape away soil and make her a shining, bare rock.
    12 They will loot your resources, plunder your merchandise, tear down your walls, and pull down your fine houses; then they will throw your stones and your woodwork and your soil into the water.’



    In the following year, 332 BC, he was forced to attack Tyre, which he captured after a long and difficult siege.


    The Siege of Tyre was orchestrated by Alexander the Great in 332 BC during his campaigns against the Persians. The Macedonian army was unable to capture the city, which was a strategic coastal base on the Mediterranean Sea, through conventional means because it was on an island and had walls right up to the sea. Alexander responded to this problem by first blockading and besieging Tyre for seven months, and then by building a causeway that allowed him to breach the fortifications.


    Alexander died in Babylon in 323 BC, the city that he planned to establish as his capital, without executing a series of planned campaigns that would have begun with an invasion of Arabia. In the years following his death, a series of civil wars tore his empire apart, resulting in the establishment of several states ruled by the Diadochi, Alexander's surviving generals and heirs.



    The Diadochi were the rival generals, families, and friends of Alexander the Great who fought for control over his empire after his death in 323 BC. The Wars of the Diadochi mark the beginning of the Hellenistic period from the Mediterranean to the Indus River Valley.

    Decline and fall
    This division was to last for a century, before the Antigonid Kingdom finally fell to Rome, and the Seleucids were harried from Persia by the Parthians and forced by the Romans to relinquish control in Asia Minor. A rump Seleucid kingdom limped on in Syria until finally put to rest by Pompey in 64 BC. The Ptolemies lasted longer in Alexandria, though as a client under Rome. Egypt was finally annexed to Rome in 30 BC.



    The Hellenistic period covers the period of Mediterranean history between the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC and the emergence of the Roman Empire as signified by the Battle of Actium in 31 BC and the subsequent conquest of Ptolemaic Egypt the following year. The Ancient Greek word Hellas is the original word for Greece, from which the word "Hellenistic" was derived.

    Rise of Rome
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    World Powers Foretold by Daniel

    Babylon
    Daniel 2:32, 36-38; 7:4
    607 B.C.E. King Nebuchadnezzar destroys Jerusalem

    Medo-Persia
    Daniel 2:32, 39; 7:5
    539 B.C.E. Conquers Babylon
    Isaiah the prophet also foretold how Babylon would be taken, and by whom - Isaiah 13:19; 14:22, 23; 44:27–45:2



    Cyrus II of Persia commonly known as Cyrus the Great and also called Cyrus the Elder by the Greeks, was the founder of the Achaemenid Empire, the first Persian Empire.
    Neo-Babylonian Empire

    Two days later, on October 12 (proleptic Gregorian calendar), Gubaru's
    troops entered Babylon, again without any resistance from the Babylonian armies, and detained Nabonidus. Herodotus explains that to accomplish this feat, the Persians, using a basin dug earlier by the Babylonian queen Nitokris to protect Babylon against Median attacks, diverted the Euphrates river into a canal so that the water level dropped "to the height of the middle of a man's thigh", which allowed the invading forces to march directly through the river bed to enter at night. On October 29, Cyrus himself entered the city of Babylon and detained Nabonidus.


    The Battle of Opis, fought in September 539 BC, was a major engagement between the armies of Persia under Cyrus the Great and the Neo-Babylonian Empire under Nabonidus during the Persian invasion of Mesopotamia. At the time, Babylonia was the last major power in western Asia that was not yet under Persian control. The battle was fought in or near the strategic riverside city of Opis, north of the capital Babylon. It resulted in a decisive victory for the Persians. A few days later, the city of Sippar surrendered to the Persians and Cyrus's forces entered Babylon apparently without a fight. Cyrus was subsequently proclaimed king of Babylonia and its subject territories, thus ending the independence of Babylon and incorporating the Babylonian Empire into the greater Persian Empire.


    537 B.C.E. Cyrus decrees return of Jews to Jerusalem

    Greece
    Daniel 2:32, 39; 7:6
    331 B.C.E. Alexander the Great conquers Persia

    Rome
    Daniel 2:33, 40; 7:7
    63 B.C.E. Rules over Israel
    70 C.E. Destroys Jerusalem

    Anglo-American relations
    Daniel 2:33, 41-43
    1914-1918 C.E. During World War I, Anglo-American World Power comes into being

    Daniel 8:23-25



    Daniel was given a revelation through an angel, pinpointing the year of the Messiah’s arrival.
    Daniel 9:24, 25

    24 “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress.

    The prophecy was fulfilled precisely as detailed.

    Porphyry - one of the most able pagan adversaries of Christianity of his day failed to prove one of the most end-times prophetic book wrong. In turn, he failed to prove miracles wrong. He failed to shake the pillar of faith.. He failed to prove the Christ an impostor.
    The scriptures stand solid - supported by accurate prophecies.



    Speaking of Porphyry...
    Why trust the Bible?
    Its truths protect us from destructive philosophical doctrines of lies - such as the Theory of Evolution.


    Did you know...?


    Porphyry (philosopher)
    Starting-points Leading to the Intelligibles (Sententiae) is a summary of the concepts of Neoplatonism and follows the teachings of Plotinus closely. Porphyry's most influential contribution to philosophy, the Introduction to Categories, incorporated Aristotle's logic into Neoplatonism, in particular the doctrine of the categories interpreted in terms of entities (in later philosophy, "universals"). The Introduction describes how qualities attributed to things may be classified, breaking down the philosophical concept of substance into relationships of genus and species. Written by Porphyry as a preface to his commentaries on Aristotle’s Categories, it was translated into Latin by Boethius as Isagoge, and became a standard medieval textbook of philosophy that remained in use for centuries. It laid the foundation for later philosophical-theological discussions of logic and the problem of universals. In medieval textbooks, the Arbor porphyriana ("Porphyrian Tree") illustrated his logical classification of substance. To this day, taxonomists use a system derived from Porphyry's Tree to classify all living organisms.

    Porphyry is also known as an opponent of Christianity and defender of Paganism, on the grounds that Christianity was irrational and placed excessive emphasis on the mystical.


    Did You Know...?
    Hypotheses are used to test hypotheses.


    Dinosaurs did not go extinct - Birds are Dinosaurs. So be careful what you call a bird.
    Excuse me while I go soak my head.
    :facepalm:
     
  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You always seem friendly, reasonable, and open-minded.

    Would you please read Revelation 12:7-12? Especially verse 9, “....who is misleading the entire inhabited earth.” In your opinion, what do you think the import of that is?

    What do you think he wants to accomplish, like, mislead how? And in what ways?
     
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  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    We will have different opinions about these verses. The JWs and Baha'is have a different exegesis.

    What we may agree on is the Dragon mentioned is featured in both the book of Daniel and Revelations.

    Who is the beast of Revelation?

    For Baha'is, like the other beasts in Daniel it represents a particular empire that has come and been.
     
  7. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I appreciate you stating your view. The Dragon in Revelation 12, though, is thrown out of heaven. Don’t you think that would rule out any Earthly empire? Also, It’s called “that Old Serpent / the Original Serpent”; For that to have any meaning, it must relate to another, well-known serpent in the Bible, don’t you think?

    Plus, on top of all that, John (the writer of Revelation) refers to the Dragon specifically in verse 9 as “the one called Devil and Satan.”

    Quite conclusive, wouldn’t you say?
     
    #227 Hockeycowboy, Aug 2, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
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  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Why are you yelling? It's very discourteous. Plus, it says your message isn't strong enough to stand on its own, which just may be the case. ;)

    Certainly. Whatever helps.

    .
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    We don’t trust the Bible on flimsy, misplaced interpretations of what were not intended to be Jeanne Dixonesque “predictions.” Prophecy isn’t some ecclesiastical Tarot deck. We trust the Bible for what it is: a collected and edited written theological treatment of Judaic and Christian experience, containing several different literary genres from several cultures and time periods. We trust that the Bible is that. We also trust that it is foundational to, informative of, and a product of, a number of theological threads, and that the writings are inspired.
     
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  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Any interpretation needs to consider the text in its entirety as well as relationships to other biblical texts. Heaven symbolises that which pertains to the realm of God with particular concern for the Divine teachings, laws and attributes. Satan symbolises the lower nature of man. The dragon is clearly mentioned at the beginning of Revelation 12 as well as Daniel.

    The apocalyptic scripture is highly symbolic and notoriously difficult to understand. Its best to look at more straightforward verses when initiating an interfaith discussion in my experience.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Beep! I see no all caps. Has yelling taken on a new characteristic that I am not aware of? :)
     
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  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    One does not need to use all caps to be yelling. Any sort of excessive green ink would qualify as such.
     
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  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Much more than opinion. But you continue to fail here as on other threads.

    Can you discuss your book of myths properly? That means no excessive green ink, no misrepresenting scripture (which of course includes reinterpreting after the fact), basically go with what the Bible says and see if it is accurate or not. It tends to fail again and again.
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Literalists have to debase prophesy to the point it is equal to me or you predicted that someone will see a red car. At that point even if the prophecies are "fulfilled" they in no way make Christianity any stronger since the weakest of religions have "prophecies" of that order that are fulfilled.
     
  15. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Middle Eastern empires can rarely compete with empires from other places. To say that Nebby ruled the world because he took over a couple of towns here and there is just plain insulting.

    Where are Nebby's government documents to show this? You'd think someone would've written it down, especially successors who didn't like the guy.

    That's really its main marketing strategy. It tells you it's the truth and encourages those who deny it to be murdered, because that's how truth works.

    Only if you care what John thinks.
     
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Since I find that Jesus put much faith in God's political kingdom of Daniel 2:44 even to the point that God's kingdom government was the theme of Jesus' teaching as per Luke 4:43.
    Since you find much of the Bible is political, then I think you might agree that the proclaiming about the 'good news of God's kingdom' as Jesus instructed his followers to do on a grand international scale as it is being done today according to Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8, then Jesus is a true Christian's ' Commander in Chief ' ( Hail to the Chief ! )
     
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  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find that Scripture will never go obsolete because God is backing His Word.
    Apparently God also believes talking (praying) to God directly was the more powerful.
    In other words, God did Not delegate communication with Him to any angel, heavenly creation.
    Communication is to be directed directly to God according to the Model Our Father prayer.
    Our Father which art in heaven......
     
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  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    The Word means jesus christ not written scripture. (god spoke through his Word not through words). I can see why youd say jesus would live forever. Thats so engraved in our history that it would probably be 4224 before christianity goes completely dead by aging relics and papers that disolve with time. Since nothing last forever.

    We are at age, we understand death more. Yet, we only apply it to physical things as if the spiritual doesnt evolve with the flesh.

    Probably fear of disassociating oneself from ones belief. It leaves a pang of "fear" and we crawl back where we are comfortable.
     
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Why Trust the Bible
    Part 4 - The Bible is Reliable

    The New Testament is a collection of Christian works written in the common (Koine) Greek language of the first century, at different times by various writers, and the modern consensus is that it provides important evidence regarding Judaism in the first century AD. In almost all Christian traditions today, the New Testament consists of 27 books. The original texts were written in the first and perhaps the second centuries of the Christian Era, in Greek, which was the common language of the Eastern Mediterranean from the conquests of Alexander the Great (335–323 BC) until the Muslim conquests in the 7th century AD. All the works that eventually became incorporated into the New Testament are believed to have been written no later than around 120 AD,. John A. T. Robinson, Dan Wallace, and William F. Albright dated all the books of the New Testament before 70 AD. Others give a final date of 80 AD, or at 96 AD.

    This ordering is remarkably consistent in the manuscript tradition, with very few deviations.



    Septuagint
    The Septuagint or LXX (from the Latin: septuāgintā literally "seventy"; sometimes called the Greek Old Testament) is the earliest extant Greek translation of the Old Testament from the original Hebrew. It is estimated that the first five books of the Old Testament, known as the Torah or Pentateuch, were translated in the mid-3rd century BCE and the remaining texts were translated in the 2nd century BCE. Under Christian auspices, the Septuagint includes the Hebrew Bible as well as the deuterocanonical books of the Christian Old Testament. Considered the primary Greek translation of the Old Testament, it is quoted a number of times in the New Testament, particularly in Pauline epistles, by the Apostolic Fathers, and later by the Greek Church Fathers.

    Final form
    All the books of western biblical canons of the Old Testament are found in the Septuagint, although the order does not always coincide with the Western ordering of the books. The Septuagint order for the Old Testament is evident in the earliest Christian Bibles (4th century).

    Some scriptures of ancient origin are found in the Septuagint but are not present in the Hebrew Bible. These additional books are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah (which later became chapter 6 of Baruch in the Vulgate), additions to Daniel (The Prayer of Azarias, the Song of the Three Children, Susanna and Bel and the Dragon), additions to Esther, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Odes, including the Prayer of Manasseh, the Psalms of Solomon, and Psalm 151.

    Despite this, there are fragments of some deuterocanonical books that have been found in Hebrew among the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran:

    What is the Septuagint?





    The Critics Failure
    Critics make the false assertion, "But prophecy is only the Jewish/Christian interpretation of matters, not an inspired revelation."

    Matthew 24:15, 16
    15“Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), 16then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.
    Luke 19:43, 44; 21:20-22

    Daniel 11:31
    And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.

    Daniel 12:11

    “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days.

    Rantings of a crazy man? :smirk:

    Roman rule over Judea created deep religious and political tensions. Josephus, the main source of information on that turbulent period, described various Jewish liberation groups that sprang up. One group was the Zealots. As their name suggests, the Zealots were zealous for Jewish freedom and, spurred on by messianic fervor, were willing to use violence. They even despised fellow Jews who sought peace with the Roman authorities. The uprisings in which the Zealots shared did not lead to liberation; rather, their actions sowed the seeds for national disaster - the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 C.E. Some Zealots fled to the mountain fortress of Masada, which had been occupied by those who were called Sicarii (Dagger Men). In 73 C.E., after a two-year siege, the Zealots committed mass suicide rather than surrender.

    In 66 C.E. pagan Roman armies surrounded “the holy city” Jerusalem, now the center of Jewish revolt against Rome. Thus, the ‘causing of desolation’ by the disgusting thing was imminent, and so this was the final signal for discerning Christians to ‘flee to the mountains.’ Following their flight, the desolation of the city and nation occurred, Jerusalem being destroyed in the year 70 C.E. Some Zealots fled to the mountain fortress of Masada, which had been occupied by those who were called Sicarii (Dagger Men).
    After a two-year siege, the Zealots committed mass suicide rather than surrender.
    Thus the last Jewish stronghold, Masada, falling to the Romans in 73 C.E.

    Josephus says that during the whole campaign against Jerusalem 1,100,000 Jews died, many from pestilence and famine, and 97,000 were taken captive, he says, many being scattered as slaves to all quarters of the empire.—The Jewish War, VI, 420 (ix, 3).


    Just as was spoken through the prophet Daniel.

    Daniel 9
    24 “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress.
    26 “And after the 62 weeks, Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.
    “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.

    27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.
    “And
    on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”



    Did Jesus really predict the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem?


    Was Jesus really the Messiah foretold in prophecy?


    Why are the Dead Sea Scrolls important?


    The Dead Sea Scrolls are not much different to the Septuagint.
    Dead Sea Scrolls (also Qumran Caves Scrolls) are ancient Jewish religious, mostly Hebrew, manuscripts found in the Qumran Caves in the West Bank near the Dead Sea.


    The Truth Behind The Dead Sea Scrolls
    Question - 25:15
    I think the bast answer is at 27:30; 40:50 - 41:50
    44:00 Definite evidence that the Bible is true.

    I believe the strongest evidence is found within the Biblical text. It is only being verified by discoveries made.
    Wait! These words sound familiar... :tonguewink:
     
    #239 nPeace, Aug 7, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
  20. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    I'm not responsible if persons dismiss accurate history. :shrug:
     
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