1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Bible Tells Me So

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Left Coast, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,132
    Ratings:
    +1,017
    Religion:
    Christian
    And then on the other hand, we need to get direction from God as to what pleases Him. For instance, does fornication please God? Many would say no.
     
  2. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,132
    Ratings:
    +1,017
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yukkie wukkie. Can you imagine literal blood coming down from heaven and people drinking it?
     
  3. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy Spring!
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    6,079
    Ratings:
    +9,008
    Religion:
    Secular Buddhist
    I think we may just disagree on how well the analogy works to describe the situation. Christianity has had 2,000 years to work out the puzzle, but are hopelessly divided on how to even begin doing so. If you want to claim the puzzle is able to be solved, that's fine. When you solve a puzzle, no one can say, you didnt solve it. It's self-evident. The pieces either fit together, or they don't. The fact that Christians are as divided as ever on whether the puzzle has been solved, and by whom, suggests the analogy breaks down.

    What I consider inconsistent is that there are literally hundreds, even thousands of groups all of whom believe the Bible and read and study it, yet come away with radically divergent views of what the message of the text is.

    I'm really not going to read an entire other thread to get your perspective, sorry. I can understand you not wanting to repeat yourself, though. If you want to give the sparknotes version here, you can.

    This strikes me as a variant of No True Scotsman.

    A: Christians aren't divided!

    B: Um, here are two Christians. They're divided.

    A: Oh, well that one's not a true Christian! True Christians aren't divided.

    Do you see the issue here?

    Additionally, identifying which group represents the "true Church" is just as vexed a question as any other I mentioned. Christians cannot agree.

    So the mark of a "true" Christian is...one who doesn't attend the services of Christians who disagree with them?

    If that's the mark of a "true" Christian...why do so many who read and study the Bible not agree with you that that's what the Bible teaches?

    Again, why would God choose a method that he knew would result in such mass disagreement?

    That said, would it surprise you to learn that there are other Christians who actually agree with you on this point...but are not JWs?

    Yet I'd venture to say you would similarly consider their versions of Christianity, "a mere imitation, and false."

    So that litmus test seems imperfect.

    Yet bizarrely, even among the Christians who, again, fully agree with you that "we can know,"...you're hopelessly divided on what it is you can know. :shrug:

    Not a problem, you've been longer before. ;):p
     
    #163 Left Coast, Sep 28, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 2
  4. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +425
    Religion:
    Scripture
    Well, the doctrine of the trinity, aside from being absurd and unreasonable, is nowhere taught by Scripture. That ought to be clear enough for anyone interested to find it out.

    Annihilation (or perishing), according to scripture, is a term that refers to ONLY those who are not faithful to the end. The faithful are to be raised immortal. And not immortal until then.

    The Christian groups I know of who understand that most will perish, also believe other ideas which they teach. For example, the JW's understand that man is to seek for immortality, and that it's not something he was created with. But they also believe in a fallen angel who has become a personal devil. I reject that idea. They have it as part of their statement of faith.

    Another group rejects that the faithful believer will be raised immortal. I reject that idea.
    I reject the idea of infant baptism, of the trinity, and that the Roman Catholic Church is the harlot of Revelation.

    I have always been open to hear why a person or group believes certain ideas that I don't believe and I don't take that lightly. And I have been, and still am, always open to changing my mind if convinced by Scripture and reason.
     
    #164 LightofTruth, Sep 28, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    8,278
    Ratings:
    +2,417
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I have found the same.
    Also, from what I have seen, most are comfortable with just "going to church", whether they believe or don't believe the church doctrine.
    It becomes like a dinner one gets invited to.
     
  6. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +425
    Religion:
    Scripture
    Not to mention that God has strictly forbidden eating blood. Even the apostles wrote letters to the church against it. (see Acts 15)
     
  7. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +425
    Religion:
    Scripture
    Most are at "church" to feel closer to God. They're not there to be convinced that their church statement of faith can be Scripturally and reasonably proven against opposing ideas out there.
     
  8. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +425
    Religion:
    Scripture
    With all the opposing doctrines out there whose responsibility is it to try and discover which ones are correct?

    The RCC would say that their tradition has been responsible. The reason they believe what they do is because they say it 's what has always been believed by them.

    The problem with that is that there were false teachers during the days of the apostles who were trying to undo what the apostles had done. And there are still groups out there today who are led by those same false teachers. So the idea that the RCC can rest on its tradition because it claims to have a history that goes back to the days of the apostles doesn't carry any weight. Who's to say that the RCC didn't develop from false teachers?

    I think it really boils down to each individual person to seek the truth as contained in the Scriptures of truth. And all the while to consider as much information as they can find.
     
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    8,278
    Ratings:
    +2,417
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I think you missed something. The puzzle has been solved.
    There are however, masses of people who think it hasn't.

    How is God inconsistent, by people's actions?
    Does a blind man make light disappear, because he can't see it?
    Does a wicked man make the light darkness, because he wants it to be?
    Does a man who thinks the light is an illusion, cause the light to change its properties?
    No.
    Because people don't see, or understand something, or are misled into believing something, or are wicked, and deny it, doesn't mean there is something wrong with that something. Does it?

    Do you see the issue here?
    Yes. I see the issue.
    Some people have accepted, at face value, what is not reality.
    Because they believe the imagined reality, the reality is not reality... in their mind.
    Do you see the problem here?

    Customer : I gave you two hundred dollar bills. Why can't I get my goods?
    Clerk : You gave me two hundred dollar bills, but only one is legit.
    Customer :I gave you two hundred dollar bills. They are the same. Give me my goods.
    Clerk : Sir. You gave me two hundred dollar bills, but only one is fake.
    Customer : Repeat..

    A.. Christians are divided - not a reality.
    A. Here are two Christians - not a reality.
    A. Why are Christians divided? What you are seeing are not two Christian. One is an imitation.
    A. Repeat... Repeat... Repeat...

    Yes. Some do have a hard time accepting that counterfeit does look like the real deal, but in reality, it is not. At this time, I'll let you repeat, until the cops get here.
    Additionally, in reality, there are wicked people, who know that they are not honest, but are happy to mislead others. If you read the scriptures I linked,,, Paul called them ministers of Satan.

    No. Of course not..How could that be?

    Never said it was the mark of a true Christian. Make sure that goes on record as a misinterpretation.
    To the question, why do so many who read and study the Bible not agree with you that that's what the Bible teaches? I assume you mean, that those who are in the body of Christ do not fellowship with those not in the body.
    Why not ask them? I believe they can speak for themselves.
    After all, it's your thread, and you can allow for a slight detour if you want.
    What I can tell you though, is only going to be a repeat of what I said previous.
    We can know what's there to know. It depends on what we are. Are we humble, hungry for truth, and honest?
    That's the ticked, according to scripture.

    I told you already. Do you want to hear it again?
    How well do you know the Bible? Do you know the account in John 6 from verse 22? Why did Jesus, speak in such a manner, knowing that it would cause that reaction? Did you notice that he knew why they were there?
    Read his answer at Matthew 13:11-16.
    Reminds me of Solomon, when he wanted to get the truth regarding the real mother.
    Wisdom is one of God's prime attributes. Only the humble gain access to him. John 6:44

    What point do you have in mind, because you misinterpreted what I said. So you need to clarify.
    Also., counterfeit money actually bears for the most part, the same markings of real money. That's why you have to examine closely, so you don't make the mistake of believing they are the same.

    Huh? Lost. What?

    I get it. You're still in the line arguing with the clerk. The cops haven't arrived yet. :D I'll wait.

    Okay then. Now that I know I can write you a book... :D
     
    #169 nPeace, Sep 29, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  10. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,132
    Ratings:
    +1,017
    Religion:
    Christian
    That is correct.
     
  11. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,132
    Ratings:
    +1,017
    Religion:
    Christian
    Good question. And I was just thinking about Jesus and his disciples. He taught them. They weren't always so sure. He spent about three years with them and then sent the holy spirit. Now then, that is a very quick analysis of what happened. But my question to you is: what happened after the apostles died?
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    8,278
    Ratings:
    +2,417
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Very good. I can see that you are a man that analyzes and carefully investigates. That's very good.
     
  13. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,132
    Ratings:
    +1,017
    Religion:
    Christian
    Again, interesting point, and I am sure many in the various folds of religion are devout. However, Jesus said he would return.
    "Will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He continue to defer their help? 8I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?" (Luke 18)
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    8,278
    Ratings:
    +2,417
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    You are a man I would really enjoy talking to, or having discussions... using only the Bible.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    8,278
    Ratings:
    +2,417
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Yes. Many a church goer seeks to be close to God, and gain understanding. Many are starved, or thirsty, and seek out a place of worship, hoping to be refreshed, only to be disappointed.
    Some leave. Some keep searching.
    Many are found - John 6:44. Many are lost, and many are on the broad road to destruction - Matthew 7:14

    Good to know you are searching.
     
  16. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy Spring!
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    6,079
    Ratings:
    +9,008
    Religion:
    Secular Buddhist
    That doesn't make sense. If I've solved the puzzle, it's self-evident I've done so when you look at it. There's no debate to be had. No one can look at and say, nope that piece is out of place...if it were, it wouldn't fit and it would be obvious.

    So the fact that Christians disagree about if and how it's been solved suggests that the analogy doesn't work here.


    Would you give a flashlight to a blind man to help him see? Would you give written instructions in German to someone who doesn't speak it? I hope not. Similarly, God allegedly gave us the Bible, knowing full well that its message would be wildly misunderstood and there would be massive confusion, even among those who believe the book is accurate, as to its meaning. So he chose a method that inconsistently delivers his message. Why?


    Some Christians (actually, most Christians) would say that person is you. :shrug:

    This is another analogy that doesn't really work. We have clearly understood and defined criteria for determining the authenticity of currency (at least in most countries). Imagine a situation in which thousands of different groups, all claiming to represent the government, all printed money within your country (are you American? I've never asked), and all had different criteria for determining which currency is valid and which isn't. What's a consumer to do?

    Indeed. Many Christians would say that about the Watchtower.

    No idea, I was replying to your exercise.

    Okay. Then what was the point of the exercise?

    The problem is that you're begging the question that your group is the "true" body of Christ. But all Christians already think, and claim, that they're in the true body of Christ. So we're back to square one. It's no detour, it's the central point of the thread. You, just like every other Christian who disagrees with you, think you've got the real deal. But none of you agree that each other has the real deal, lol. So all the things you claim about them being fake, they claim about you.

    Now I thought you said before that the issue with non-JWs isn't that they're not humble (sorry for the double negative). But you've now again said we can know the truth if we are humble, hungry for truth, and honest. Does that mean that anyone who disagrees with you isn't humble, isn't interested in knowing the truth, or isn't honest? If not, then those criteria don't seem helpful to determine who the "real" Christians are.

    I was responding to your point that some Christians attend each other's services. You seemed to see that as evidence that they don't know the truth. I was pointing out to you that some Christians agree with you on that point - but they're not JWs.

    I replied to this above.

    Let me know when they get here. :shrug:;)

    Oh dear...
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  17. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +425
    Religion:
    Scripture
    I think many would agree on what constitutes good Bible study. That the Bible is inspired by God and contains doctrines which are to be believed.
    I agree with that. However, I disagree that some of those doctrines are a mystery or can't be comprehended by reason. I also disagree that we need to explain those doctrines by adding words and phrases not found in the Bible.
    For example, 'immortal soul' and 'Trinity'.
    Some think they have discovered something and need to explain it outside of Scripture. I haven't found that necessary. Because the Bible explains itself. A little here and a little there.
     
  18. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,010
    Ratings:
    +585
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    I think Bible is given as clear communication. It works well, if person remains in truth, but those who don’t remain in truth, end up in many troubles. But I don’t think that is a fault in the Bible, or in God’s communication.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy Spring!
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    6,079
    Ratings:
    +9,008
    Religion:
    Secular Buddhist
    If I write a letter, and 10 people read it and all come away with 10 different understandings of what the heck I meant, is the issue the 10 people, or is the issue more likely that I could've been more clear?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +425
    Religion:
    Scripture
    Who would you expect to be the authority on the creation of man?

    In other words, if you wanted to read about what is man, and how he was created, where would you go to find out?

    I'd suggest you go to Moses because that's where you'll find the answer. he is the one who tells what man is and how he was created.

    My question is, why do they not believe Moses?

    Do you think Jesus or Paul would or have disagreed with Moses about what is man and how he was created?

    I think not.
     
Loading...