The Bible Tells Me So

[Trailblazer]

Your interpretation of Ecc 12:7 has to be incorrect because God told Adam "YOU shall return" to dust. God did not say "your body will return to dust", but "YOU", Adam, would return to his native earth..

Genesis 3:19, KJV: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Obviously, God was referring to the body in the verse above because only the body can return unto the ground. .

Therefore the correct interpretation of Ecc 12:7 is that the spirit which returns to God is the breath of life that God gave Adam and which animated Adam who was dust.

That's right, the spirit, which is the soul which animates the body, will return to God after the body dies.

If the spirit itself is the man then the man did not return to dust as God said he would.

That's right, the spirit is the man himself and the spirit will not return to dust because spirits do not ever return to dust.

God never said the man himself would return to dust, YOU said that. God said unto dust shalt thou return. Obviously God was referring to the body of the man because only a body can return to dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't get the bits that are like that, I'm instantly confused

Even more confused now

Sorry for the confusion. I have been known to throw out too much information all at one, assuming people will understand it.

Trailblazer said: Moreover, Jesus said that the world would SEE Him no more and He was no more in the world BEFORE He died on the cross:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

• That verse means exactly what it says. After Jesus died, the world would not see Him anymore. In other words, Jesus would not return to the earth after He died (as most Christians believe).

The second part is a little more difficult; here is my interpretation:

but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

• Those who Jesus was addressing would see Him, because He is still alive in spirit, so those he was addressing will have eternal life.

Trailblazer said: John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

And now I am no more in the world,

• Again, Jesus is saying that He will no longer be in the world after He dies, so that means that Jesus will not return to the world (as most Christians believe).

but these are in the world -

• I am not sure who Jesus was referring to.

and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

• Jesus was saying He was coming to His Father (God) in heaven and asking God to take care of those God had put in His (Jesus') care, so that those people may be one with each other just as Jesus is one with God..

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Trailblazer said: Moreover, Jesus said that the world would SEE Him no more and He was no more in the world BEFORE He died on the cross:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

• That verse means exactly what it says. After Jesus died, the world would not see Him anymore. In other words, Jesus would not return to the earth after He died (as most Christians believe).

Ok, so it's saying that the disciples see him for a little while, before he dies, but the world doesn't seem during that 'waiting room' time and after the death. Or something approximately like that. In any case, I don't really understand the relevance of pointing that out as part of the process, or if the 'world' wasn't 'seeing' him as he died. Because crowds of people from the world probably did, as at the time, public execution seemed to be pretty public, though most modern people would be sickened by it. (and hopefully it stays that way) A crucifixion was meant for public observation

Trailblazer said: John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

And now I am no more in the world,

• Again, Jesus is saying that He will no longer be in the world after He dies, so that means that Jesus will not return to the world (as most Christians believe).

but these are in the world -

• I am not sure who Jesus was referring to.

and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

• Jesus was saying He was coming to His Father (God) in heaven and asking God to take care of those God had put in His (Jesus') care, so that those people may be one with each other just as Jesus is one with God..

Maybe part of the problem is, and this is because I assume we are using the KJV partly, is that we are looking at 17th century english translations of greek texts from 1600 years prior. That could be why we are trying to squeeze out the meaning from a few phrases, and why it is immensely confusing. 'But these are in the world' could literally refer to anything, to me it sounds like some kind of olde english figure of speech that probably was not confusing at one time. By the way, the greek word for world here is apparently kosmo, which could refer to the universe. Do you ever try to watch plays by shakespeare? I have - I have to rewind every half minute to try and pick up what they mean. This is also a reason why I like to read the latest editions of the poetic edda and other norse mythology, it's because the ones from just a hundred years ago have a huge linguistic impasse

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, that spirit, or ability to live, goes back to God in a sense, upon death, because He is the only one that can ultimately give life.
God told Adam that they would die, not live, if they disobeyed. This is a very basic concept to understand what the Bible is saying.

I believe that God meant that Adam and Eve they would die spiritually, not that they would die physically. All humans die physically because the human body was never created to be immortal, but some people have spiritual life whereas some people do not.

In order to really understand this, one must do a pretty careful examination of the scriptures to recognize what spirit and soul mean, and how these words are used in reference to life and how upon death the spirit goes back to God.

Genesis 2:7 helps to explain this.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So was he a dead soul before that? Because It says he BECAME a living soul. There's a difference between becoming a living soul rather than transferring a soul as if it were living before that to a body. Because it says the man became a living soul.

To me that means he became a soul that was living, a living soul, so it would have meant the same thing if he had said “and man became a soul.”

God's word has it written that the soul can die. Ezekiel 18:4 - "Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die."
Therefore, the soul is not inherently immortal.

To me that means that the soul who sins will not have eternal life, so it will die spiritually. A soul is not physical so it cannot die.

I believe that all humans have a soul that continues to exist forever (is immortal) but that is not to be confused with eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is near to God, meaning that they know and love God. One way to know and love God is by recognizing Jesus so that is why believing in Jesus conferred eternal life.

Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God, and we can have eternal life both in this world and in the next world (afterlife). It is a state of the soul that is near to God.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I believe that the soul (spirit) of man is immortal, so no matter what people believe or disbelieve no soul ever actually perishes, so perish in John 3:16 means being far from God.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

Those people who are veiled from God, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

I believe that when Jesus said we would lose our soul He meant we would not attain eternal life because we would be veiled from God.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The way I interpret those verses is that Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok, so it's saying that the disciples see him for a little while, before he dies, but the world doesn't seem during that 'waiting room' time and after the death. Or something approximately like that. In any case, I don't really understand the relevance of pointing that out as part of the process, or if the 'world' wasn't 'seeing' him as he died.

The only reason I point it out is because most Christians believe that Jesus is going to return to earth.

Maybe part of the problem is, and this is because I assume we are using the KJV partly, is that we are looking at 17th century english translations of greek texts from 1600 years prior. That could be why we are trying to squeeze out the meaning from a few phrases, and why it is immensely confusing. 'But these are in the world' could literally refer to anything, to me it sounds like some kind of olde english figure of speech that probably was not confusing at one time.

Yes, I agree. 'But these are in the world' could literally refer to anything. Maybe that is why I could not assign a meaning to it.
A lot of the New Testament is like that.

Try this verse on for size.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Many Christians believe I will come again means that Jesus is going to come again to the world.
I call that wishful thinking.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The only reason I point it out is because most Christians believe that Jesus is going to return to earth.

So I take it that you believe that the "doubting thomas" account was one made by a human hand.. That's where Jesus displays his physical body

 

[Trailblazer]

So I take it that you believe that the "doubting thomas" account was one made by a human hand.. That's where Jesus displays his physical body

I believe that the whole resurrection story was fictional.
In other words, I do not believe that Jesus ever rose from the dead.
So I believe that the doubting thomas account was just part of the story-line meant to convince people that Jesus was alive.

 

[LightofTruth]

Genesis 3:19, KJV: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Obviously, God was referring to the body in the verse above because only the body can return unto the ground. .

That's right, the spirit, which is the soul which animates the body, will return to God after the body dies.

That's right, the spirit is the man himself and the spirit will not return to dust because spirits do not ever return to dust.

God never said the man himself would return to dust, YOU said that. God said unto dust shalt thou return. Obviously God was referring to the body of the man because only a body can return to dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

If God was "Obviously...referring to the body of the man because only a body can return to dust." He would have used the word bâśâr which refers to the flesh or body of Adam. But God didn't tell Adam that his bâśâr would return to dust but that Adam, himself would. That's why God uses the word "YOU" instead of 'your body' (bâśâr).

He says "YOU" (H859) "YOU are dust".

H859
BDB Definition:
1) you (second person singular masculine)
Part of Speech: personal pronoun

Like the BDB dictionary The Cambridge Bible Commentary understands correctly the word "YOU".

"dust thou art, &c.] See note on Gen_3:7. Jehovah does not slay man at once; He is merciful, and relaxes His first decree. Man is not to enjoy earthly immortality: but he shall live until “the breath of God” is taken from him, and he becomes dust again."

Can you see that? The CBC says that "HE becomes dust again". That's because that's what God says.

 

[sojourner]

Given the current state of the world, doing too much of that doesn't seem like a good idea to me, in a way. The way out of the messes we make probably calls for more humility, in many instances. Men who think they are god often err. Maybe some can 'handle' it, but many can't

The mind of Christ is a humble mind.

 

[Left Coast]

So a thread I started to discuss why the Bible is unclear has descended into a debate about whether a particular doctrine is taught in the Bible....

Can we step back for a minute? Whichever side is correct, if God intended for us to just read the Bible to be able to glean his views... the question of the thread is, why does doing just that produce such contradictory results? Is it possible that perhaps the Bible is not so clear? Maybe even contradictory?

 

[1213]

...So again, the question is, if the Bible's teachings are so clear, and we just need to read it and see what it says - why does following exactly that advice produce such disparate results?

I think it is because many people don’t really like what is said in the Bible, therefore they make own interpretation of it that fits to their own desires and then they form a religion around their own doctrines.

It is sad, but luckily for those who love truth, it can still be found in the Bible. And people who are truly disciples of Jesus (“Christian”), remain in the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

 

[Tambourine]

How can a book "tell" anybody what to do? A book has never spoken to me. It was always myself who had to read the written symbols and interpret them in a way that made sense to me and my personal situation, which is how I used to assume everybody else would also glean information from books.

Do people regularly converse with ink and paper, and am I the only one who merely uses them to read what's written there?

 

[Left Coast]

I think it is because many people don’t really like what is said in the Bible, therefore they make own interpretation of it that fits to their own desires and then they form a religion around their own doctrines.

I have a feeling some Bible believing Christians I know might say that about you...it seems to me like the many varieties of Bible believing Christians all really like the Bible. So I don't think that's the issue. The issue that reading the Bible doesn't produce one clear message or set of doctrines.

 

[YoursTrue]

If that is so, then why did Jesus need his body, going forward from his death? (and did he then technically die, as the body remained with the spirit, or at least quickly returned to it [or vice versa] after the crucifixion, functional and intact?)

Good question about needing his body as he went on to die.

 

[YoursTrue]

How can a book "tell" anybody what to do? A book has never spoken to me. It was always myself who had to read the written symbols and interpret them in a way that made sense to me and my personal situation, which is how I used to assume everybody else would also glean information from books.

Do people regularly converse with ink and paper, and am I the only one who merely uses them to read what's written there?

It depends. Jesus usually said, "It is written."

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe that God meant that Adam and Eve they would die spiritually, not that they would die physically. All humans die physically because the human body was never created to be immortal, but some people have spiritual life whereas some people do not.

To me that means he became a soul that was living, a living soul, so it would have meant the same thing if he had said “and man became a soul.”

To me that means that the soul who sins will not have eternal life, so it will die spiritually. A soul is not physical so it cannot die.

I believe that all humans have a soul that continues to exist forever (is immortal) but that is not to be confused with eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is near to God, meaning that they know and love God. One way to know and love God is by recognizing Jesus so that is why believing in Jesus conferred eternal life.

Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God, and we can have eternal life both in this world and in the next world (afterlife). It is a state of the soul that is near to God.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I believe that the soul (spirit) of man is immortal, so no matter what people believe or disbelieve no soul ever actually perishes, so perish in John 3:16 means being far from God.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

Those people who are veiled from God, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

I believe that when Jesus said we would lose our soul He meant we would not attain eternal life because we would be veiled from God.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The way I interpret those verses is that Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life.

OK, thank you for expressing yourself. I believe what the Bible says. Adam was given life (spirit, nephesh, or breath) by God after He created his body from the ground. When the breath left him and went 'back' in a sense to the One who allowed him to live, he--Adam--died. Nothing about his living after that in any shape or form. Not a word.
Genesis 1:16,17 - And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
God did not tell Adam that he would not die, or that he would live in spirit somewhere else. No. He never assured Adam after that either that he would live on in another realm of existence. Nothing like that at all. The Bible has written -- he died.

 

[rational experiences]

OK, thank you for expressing yourself. I believe what the Bible says. Adam was given life (spirit, nephesh, or breath) by God after He created his body from the ground. When the breath left him and went 'back' in a sense to the One who allowed him to live, he--Adam--died. Nothing about his living after that in any shape or form. Not a word.
Genesis 1:16,17 - And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
God did not tell Adam that he would not die, or that he would live in spirit somewhere else. No. He never assured Adam after that either that he would live on in another realm of existence. Nothing like that at all. The Bible has written -- he died.

In human one of science self quotes. One life, one body and one a self thinking.

Are you breathing first and of origin as a man in life breathing, quoting a God thesis about Earth the stone for a science thesis living in an oxygenated water natural body/mass?

The answer for one self should be yes first.

Do you and are you speaking on behalf of a past when a human did not exist to own breathing?

No.

But if you believed in this thesis today would you be trying to separate oxygen from the water mass in a false science thesis for reactive science?

You know nuclear ground mass fission?

As a one of thinker/ a theo God thinker ist. The Satan ist self?

Science tist?

Yes should be the one male or human man thinker, doing the talking about God in his highest thinking word statements, thinking about what would happen or did happen to self man/male in a ground fission reaction. As done to self/man.

How the information is actually quoted....seeing a one of human male is speaking on behalf of God quotes. Which you seem to ignore as being relevant, the book writer, male thinker.

 

[YoursTrue]

I have a feeling some Bible believing Christians I know might say that about you...it seems to me like the many varieties of Bible believing Christians all really like the Bible. So I don't think that's the issue. The issue that reading the Bible doesn't produce one clear message or set of doctrines.

That is why one must pray to God to find the narrow road. I prayed before I knew God to find out if He was there because I wanted/needed to know after many years of searching. And there is no doubt that He showed me. It's almost like the apostle Paul if you know his story. I, however, didn't have a blinding occurrence like Paul did.
But God showed me. That's after I prayed for knowledge.
Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7)

 

[rational experiences]

That is why one must pray to God to find the narrow road. I prayed before I knew God to find out if He was there because I wanted/needed to know after many years of searching. And there is no doubt that He showed me. It's almost like the apostle Paul if you know his story. I, however, didn't have a blinding occurrence like Paul did.
But God showed me. That's after I prayed for knowledge.
Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7)

A one of self first as a human male quotes I will invent human sciences.

However I am first a natural human living life body and mind psyche. The highest self awareness, natural. Which owns no science quote whatsoever first.

True taught relative conscious one self, one advice, one self is a natural self first.

No Bible quotes actually.

A written book is to read and then be coerced by the information written by another human.

As I can think for my own self first, I therefore do not have to believe the information. Yet groups state you must, because the group says so.

Yet historically the natural group also one selves, all natural just lived a human group life as a family. True self relativity as compared to the book writer, information to coerce.

Self one body life is a human, who is self conscious. Without stories.

Science is a preaching coercion claimed in human consciousness to know it all, by definition for science. Science is only science. Science never was knower of everything....Noah and knower when said "sounds the same word".

Realize yet how wrong you all are?

When you claim that a human life, a spiritual life and the highest life as one human self was sacrificed, as consciousness you are then meant to ask, why did a male, a man, a human, a one of higher spiritual self, living spiritually and naturally be life sacrificed?

If you were going to tell a natural truth, in the state of being a life equal as a spiritual one bodied female human to a spiritual one bodied male/man as equals...without sex being involved or included in a thesis.

Reason that sex was not included, is because sex is natural, and just a human choice.

Science was NEVER natural and was just a human choice also.

Therefore only a one of human female, a life equal could tell a story to the one of life man/male equal, her brother why he got life sacrificed. The answer was he theo (God) ist for Satan...changed what he quantified was God stone and also its heavenly gas spirits in their highest natural spatial coldest history.

As a story teller.

 

[YoursTrue]

Where is this perpetual life to be lived? How? And if your spirit goes away for a time to return to your body, where is it for that time, and why?

Believing you deserve 'undeserved grace' is also a faith claim - you still have to have a good deal of faith to believe you deserve something you do not, that you deserve what is undeserved

Your interpretation of Ecc 12:7 has to be incorrect because God told Adam "YOU shall return" to dust. God did not say "your body will return to dust", but "YOU", Adam, would return to his native earth..
Therefore the correct interpretation of Ecc 12:7 is that the spirit which returns to God is the breath of life that God gave Adam and which animated Adam who was dust.

If the spirit itself is the man then the man did not return to dust as God said he would.

You're not the only one who can't accept what God told Adam. There are billions.

Good point about how God told Adam, "YOU will return to the dust."