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Featured The Bible declares that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Rick B, May 27, 2017.

  1. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The Bible declares Jesus is God but does it many ways that can be missed.
    John the Baptist is filled with the holy spirit but Jesus is the holy child, for example.
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It's really not that simple as when Jesus refers to "the Father", including praying to him, then logically he cannot be exactly one and the same with "the Father". This is why historically it has been called "the mystery of the trinity" because, at least at face value, it doesn't make sense. The early church very much struggled with this, and there was and still is different theories as to the relationship between Jesus and God.
     
  3. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    It is my intention to have this text (which I challenged with earlier) be my final positive proposition that the Bible affirms the deity of Christ. Especially since @kjw47 has appeared to decline further attempts to defend his religious adherence or respond to my refutations.
     
    #923 Rick B, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  4. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    In Isaiah 6:1 and 2, Jesus is the one being seen and described, we know this because it is "Lord". Verse 3 is about the Father, because of the word "LORD". Isaiah saw Jesus sitting on His throne in verses 1 and 2.
     
  5. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus replies to that at John 20:17--and while back in heaven at Revelation 3:12--You wont believe Jesus over a man with a white collar on. Not all is as appears in this satan ruled system( 2Corinthians 11:12-15--Him and his teachers transform into an angel of light--making it appear good to the mortal heart.
    Who did God tell you to believe? He spoke from heaven at Jesus baptism and said--This is my son the beloved in whom I am well pleased--LISTEN TO HIM. When Jesus has 3 real teachers teaching Jesus has a God as well--it is truth. Fact has proven no capitol G God belongs in the last line of John 1:1. A god is correct--He was made lower than the angels( Heb 2:7-9) while on earth--a mortal. Gods power went through him( Acts 2:22) just as it did through Moses. As well they did not bow in worship to a mortal Jesus as trinity translation has erred in translating--it kills the trinity theory and so do facts.
     
    #925 kjw47, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  6. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    Romans 9:5

    Byzantine / Majority Text
    ων οι πατερες και εξ ων ο χριστος το κατα σαρκα ο ων (5723) επι παντων θεος ευλογητοςεις τους αιωνας αμην

    Tichendorf 8th Edition
    ὧν οἱ πατέρες, καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα• ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰςτοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

    Textus Receptus
    ων οι πατερες και εξ ων ο χριστος το κατα σαρκα ο ων (5723) επι παντων θεος ευλογητοςεις τους αιωνας αμην

    Neste-Aland 26
    ωJν (5752) οἱ πατέρες, καὶ εχ ωJν (5752) ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα· ὁ ωJν (5752) ἐπὶ πάντωνθεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

    Westcott / Hort, UBS4
    ων οι πατερες και εξ ων ο χριστος το κατα σαρκα ο ων (5723) επι παντων θεος ευλογητοςεις τους αιωνας αμην

    whose are the patriarchs and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh who is over all God blessed forever Amen

    NWT Interlinear
    ὧν(of whom) οἱ(the), πατέρες,(fathers) καὶ(and) ἐξ(out of) ὧν(whom) ὁ(the) χριστὸς(Christ) τὸ(the (thing) κατὰ(according to), σάρκα,(flesh) ὁ(the (one) ὢν(being) ἐπὶ(upon),(all (things) θεὸς(God) εὐλογητὸς(blessed (one) εἰς(into) τοὺς(the) αἰῶνας·(ages ἀμήν)

    Of whom (εξ ων). Fourth relative clause and here with εξ and the ablative. Christ (ο χριστος). The Messiah. As concerning the flesh (τὸ κατὰ σάρκα). Accusative of general reference, "as to the according to the flesh." Paul limits the descent of Jesus from the Jews to his human side as he did in Acts 1:3 . Who is over all, God blessed for ever (ὁ oν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς ). A clear statement of the deity of Christ following the remark about his humanity. This is the natural and the obvious way of punctuating the sentence. To make a full stop after σαρκα (or colon) and start a new sentence for the doxology is very abrupt and awkward. See Acts 20:28 ; Titus 2:13 for Paul's use of θεὸς applied to Jesus Christ. A. T. Robertson Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament Bible Commentary

    Bruce Metzger says: "The interpretation that refers the passage to Christ suits the structure of the sentence, whereas the interpretation that takes the words as an asyndetic doxology to God the Father is awkward and unnatural." (p. 521) Bruce Metzger also refers to Nigel Turner as declaring it to be grammatically unnatural that a participle agreeing with CHRISTOS "should first be divorced from it and then given the force of a wish, receiving a different person as its subject." (Metzger gives Grammatical Insights into the New Testament Edinburgh, 1965), page 15 by Nigel Turner.
     
  7. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Trinity translating error to fit false council teachings. The only translating in existence is Catholicism translating--JW translating,( protestant translating from Catholicism translating errors) they could not fix,
    Trinity translations teach 2 different Gods--like at John 1:1--In plain English trinity talk, the second line reads--And God was with God= impossible--there is one God--or the same at Rev 3:12--Jesus teaches he has a God 4 x in a single paragraph--so in plain trinity talk--God has a God= impossible--there is one God.
     
  8. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Because rev 6 occurred in 1914--The first ride of the white horse= righteous war--the war in heaven--Michael battled satan and his angels and beat them, casting them out of heaven forever to the earth.-- Notice--he receives his crown--only Jesus is getting the crown( this is Gods kingdom taking full control of heaven-The presence)
    Satan came like a devouring lion, angry, knowing his time is short--ww1--hearts filled with hatred--millions slaughtered( other 3 riders) after ww1--millions upon millions died all over the earth from the filth of slaughtering one another, pestilence, starvation, diseases--they still ride, Jesus rides the second ride of the white horse at Har-mageddon--He is the rider both times. Him getting the crown at the first ride proves it-- their are only two rides of the white horse mentioned in revelation.
     
  9. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Listen to the words at John 14:1--two beings mentioned--one is God--one is Jesus. Yes one must believe in the real Jesus--Gods son--not God. Jesus has a mortal mother. God has no beginning.
    God is king of eternity. Jesus had to be appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15)--then must hand the kingdom back to his God and Father and subject himself 1Cor 15:24-28)--because he is Michael. Named Jesus as a mortal.
    It is Michael who stands up for the sons of Daniel. Daniel 12:1--Jesus came just for the sons of Daniel--it was Paul who was commishioned to go to the gentiles as well.
     
  10. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    Still refusing to engage the text?
     
  11. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    Evasion. Red-Herring. Rabbit-trail. Irrelevant non-response.
     
  12. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    No Michael in this text. Only in your imagination. In this debate you are only existing in the echo-chamber of your tradition. You are revealing yourself as an absurd (in the technical sense) puppet.
     
  13. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    You cannot even agree with, let alone defend, your own Kingdom Interlinear which properly translates John 20:28 when Thomas sees the risen Christ:

    ἀπεκρίθηAnswered ΘωμᾶςThomas καὶand εἶπενhe said αὐτῷto him ὉThe κύριόςLord μουof me καὶand ὁthe θεόςGod μου.of me!

    Here is irrefutable, solid evidence against your assertion: "Jesus is NEVER called--HO THEOS( THE GOD) in the NT"

    This verse, alone, in your own JW Greek Interlinear, contradicts the JW's false teaching against the full deity of Christ.

    When someone provides refutation of you and you just keep repeating the same simplistic stuff, that is a demonstration you do not possess the capability of actually refuting the arguments presented to you. Your narrative cannot survive cross-examination.
     
  14. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    John 14:10 (ESV Strong's) 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
     
  15. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Luke 10:17-18 (ESV Strong's) 17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    Revelation is an end time prophecy, Jesus saw satan being kicked out of heaven. "I saw" = past tense, how could Revelation 6 have happened in 1914? No seals of the scroll have been opened yet.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I don't know of anyone shown the meaning although there are plenty of people who think they know the meaning and don't.
     
  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you have facts but I believe you misconstrue them. I accept valid proof as long as the person follows the rules of logic. I haven't seen any valid proof for the JW's views of Christmas and Easter yet. I go by the Bible and both events are in there.
     
  18. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe current translators went back to the original texts and produce a result with the Trinity in it. My guess is that Jw's a priori decided there wasn't one and mistranslated it away as best they could.
     
  19. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NASB

    5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NIV

    The text begins with an affirmation that the Lord Jesus initially was en morphe theou hyperchon (“in the form/nature of God existing”) and that he then emptied himself by taking on morphen doulou (“form/nature of a slave”) by being born as a man.

    It is clear that this passage is an explicit and emphatic witness to Jesus’ prehuman existence, and not only to his preexistence but to his having existed as God in heaven before he became man. After all, no one disputes the fact that to exist in the form of a servant is to be a servant, is to have the very nature of a servant. In a similar manner, to exist in God’s form is to have the very nature of God, is to exist as God.

    To put this in simpler terms, if one denies that Christ was truly God one must also deny that he was truly a servant. There is simply no way around this point.


    “… It is not doubtful that Paul thought of Jesus Christ in terms of God. He says of Jesus that he was in the form of God. (Phil. 2:6). He then goes on to say that Jesus was found in human form (Phil. 2:8, RSV), where the AV renders that he was found in fashion as a man. The RSV somewhat misleadingly translates two Greek words by the English word form, whereas the AV correctly distinguishes between them. In the first instance the word is morphe, which means the unchanging and unchangeable essential nature of a thing; the second word is schema, which means the changing and altering external form of a person or a thing. For instance, a man has always the unchanging morphe of manhood; that is what he essentially is; but he will have different schemata, different outward forms, in babyhood, childhood, youth, maturity and old age. A tulip, a rose, a chrysanthemum, a marigold, a daffodil, a delphinium all have the same morphe, the same essential nature, for they are all flowers; but they have very different outward schemata, outward forms. Paul says that Jesus was in the morphe of God; that is to say, the essential nature of Jesus is the same as the essential nature of God; but he says that Jesus was found in the schema of a man; that is to say, he temporarily took the form of manhood upon him. The NEB renders the Greek well here. In translating the word morphe it renders the passage: ‘The divine nature was his from the first.’ In translating the word schema it says that he was ‘revealed in human shape.’ This passage leaves us in no doubt that Paul believed that the nature of Jesus is the nature of God.” (Barclay, Jesus As They Saw Him [Eerdmans Publishing Company; Grand Rapids MI, rpt. 1998], pp. 27-28; bold emphasis ours)


    Rather, "existing," present active participle of huparcho. In the form of God (en morphe theou). Morph means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ. (Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament; underline emphasis ours)

    In other words, since to exist in the form of God is to bear the very nature and glory of God Jesus must therefore be equal with God the Father in essence. As the following writer puts it:

    “The definite article to of to einai confirms that this second expression is closely connected with the first, for the function of the definite article here is designated to point back to something previously mentioned. Therefore one should expect that to einai isa theoi (“the being equal with God”) would refer epexegetically [explanatory] to the en morphe theou huparchon (“existing in the form of God”) that preceded it. This means then that “the being equal with God” is precisely another way of saying “in the form of God.” Or better still, whatever meaning one might put forth as a possible meaning for the expression morphe theou can only be properly understood in terms of isa theo, and vice versa — to einai isa theoi can only be properly understood in terms of morphe theou.” (Hawthorne, “In the Form of God and Equal with God,” Where Christology Began, p. 104)

    “… (4) On the difficult translation issue of the meaning of verse 6b, I think the best linguistic argument now suggests the translation: ‘he did not think equality with God something to be used for his own advantage’. In other words, the issue is not whether Christ gains equality or whether he retains it, as in some translations. He has equality with God and there is no question of losing it; the issue is his attitude to it. (5) The ‘form of God’ (v. 6) and the ‘form of a servant’ (v. 7), which are clearly intended to be contrasted, refer to forms of appearance: the splendour of the divine glory in heaven contrasted with the human form on earth.

    “These preliminary points about the exegetical decisions I make result in the following exegesis of verses 6-11. The pre-existent Christ, being equal with God, shared the divine glory in heaven. But he did not consider equality with God something he should use for his own advantage. He did not understand his equality with God as a matter of being served by others, but as something he could express in service, obedience, self-renunciation and self-humiliation for others. Therefore, he renounced the outward splendour of the heavenly court for the life of a human being on earth, one who lived his obedience to God in self-humiliation even to the point of the peculiarly shameful death by crucifixion, the death of a slave… (Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the God of Israel – God Crucified and Other Studies on the New Testament’s Christology of Divine Identity [William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI/ Cambridge, U.K. 2008], 1. God Crucified, pp. 41-42; underline emphasis ours)


    “… The term [pleroma] may express simply ‘totality.’ As modified in 2:9, the term means ‘the full measure of deity,’ and 1:19 must bear the same meaning. Therefore, it expresses that Jesus was completely God. Everything that God is, Jesus is… Here Paul stated that the Godhead determined that the human Jesus would be God, sharing all the properties, characteristics, and prerogatives of God himself. Of course, the movement in the incarnation was that God took flesh, not that a human was elevated to deity. The statement actually means that God was pleased to take human form in Jesus. He was no less than God, and he continues to be fully divine (‘dwell’ is present tense stressing an ongoing reality).

    “Another factor to consider in this statement is that Paul attributed everything to the Father. The context stresses the work of God the Father on behalf of Christians. The motif continues here. There is perfect harmony in the plan of salvation, for God the Father initiated the deliverance of his people (1:12-14), and God the Father delighted in the fact that Jesus was fully and completely God (1:19)…” (Richard R. Melick, Jr., The New American Commentary, Philippians–Colossians–Philemon, pp. 224-225; comments within brackets and bold and underline emphasis ours)

    "You must have the same mindset among yourselves that was in Christ Jesus, Who, although He eternally existed in the very form of God, did not consider that equality He had with God the Father something to be held on to at all costs, but instead He made Himself nothing, by taking on the very form of a slave, by being made in human likeness. And having entered into human existence, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even the death one dies on a cross! Because of this, God the Father exalted Him to the highest place, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the mention of the exalted name of Jesus everyone who is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, bows the knee, and every tongue confesses: ‘Jesus Christ is Lord!’ All to the glory of God the Father!” Dr. James R. White
     
  20. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't matter--light doesn't enter darkness.
     
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