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Featured The Bible declares that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Rick B, May 27, 2017.

  1. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    I don't see the bible declaring Jesus as God in any of that. 5000 words 10 pages that people nothing.
     
  2. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Great! Now please explain to us how Oneness Pentecostalism is both clear and consistent. I'm all eyes and ears. :)

    Relevance?
     
  3. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    How is relevant?Let me see if I have this straight maybe I don't. Your claim is the Trinity is true and the bible claims Jesus as God and your saying the fact Trinity isn't in the bible isn't relevant?

    If I stay on these forums much longer I may have to go to the psych ward I think I'm losing my mind.

    Don't try and prove it as biblical truth if it's not in the bible that doesn't make sense. It's not a biblical concept.Its polytheism.
     
  4. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Yes

    I don't think you do.

    Absolutely!

    Then I recommend you not stay on the forum too long unless it is your goal to lose your mind.

    But to answer your prior assertion, it doesn’t matter if the word “Trinity” is found in scripture. What matters is if the doctrine is supported by scripture. The word “bible” isn’t found in scripture either. Will you now claim this is relevant?

    We talked about “proof” before, back on post 796. Don’t you remember?

    Trinitarian scholars don’t claim to “prove” anything… they simply go where the overwhelming evidence of scripture takes them.

    We also talked about making broad, unsourced, unsubstantiated claims…apparently without success.

    Look, I think it’s nice you’ve made your opinion known, but from the outset the author made know this thread’s intent to engage in scholarly, scriptural debate rather than act as a board for registering opinions.

    I’m still awaiting the laconic expository or exegetical analysis substantiating your prior assertion that Oneness Pentecostalism is as scripturally sound as the Trinity. I haven’t quite seen it yet, anymore than I've seen your refutation of posts 40, 41 and 42.

    As such I’m afraid your responses can only be construed as further evidence of a penchant for presenting unsubstantiated claims.
     
  5. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    JESUS IS YAHWEH
    Examining the New Testament Use of Old Testament Passages to Demonstrate the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ
    Sam Shamoun

    As any Bible-believing Christian already knows (assuming that he has actually carefully studied the entirety of Scriptures) the NT writers often apply OT passages which speak of certain characteristics or acts of Yahweh to the Lord Jesus. The only logical conclusion one can arrive at is that the NT writers clearly believed that the Lord Jesus Christ was the incarnation of Yahweh God, i.e. they believed that Yahweh God Almighty had become an actual human being in the historical person of the Lord Jesus.
    In this article, we will present a host of the OT citations regarding the nature and works of Yahweh which are either quoted or alluded to by the NT authors in connection with the Lord Jesus. We will also address an objection which is often raised by anti-Trinitarians in trying to deny that the NT writers believed that Jesus was the visible manifestation of Yahweh. We will then conclude with a short summary.
    We begin with our analysis.

    YAHWEH
    "Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba and called there on the name of Yahweh, the Everlasting God." Genesis 21:33
    "Into your hand I commit my spirit; you have redeemed me, O Yahweh, faithful God." Psalm 31:5
    "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as Yahweh has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom Yahweh calls." Joel 2:32
    JESUS
    "And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ And when he had said this, he fell asleep.’" Acts 7:59-60
    "Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, ‘Ananias.’ And he said, ‘Here I am, Lord.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.’ But Ananias answered, ‘Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name’ ... So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, ‘Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit’… And all who heard him were amazed and said, ‘Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called upon this name? And has he not come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests?’" Acts 9:10-14, 17, 21
    "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’" Romans 10:9-13
    "To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:" 1 Corinthians 1:2

    YAHWEH
    "Yahweh is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him." Exodus 15:2
    "Salvation belongs to Yahweh; your blessing be on your people!" Psalm 3:8
    "For God alone my soul waits in silence; from him comes my salvation." Psalm 62:1
    "Yahweh is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation ... I thank you that you have answered me and have become my salvation." Psalm 118:14, 21
    JESUS
    "For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10
    "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him," Hebrews 5:9
    "and crying out with a loud voice, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’" Revelation 7:10

    YAHWEH
    "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, Yahweh, sanctify you.’" Exodus 31:13
    "Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance. Only in Yahweh, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. In Yahweh all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory." Isaiah 45:21-25
    "Then the nations will know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore." Ezekiel 37:28
    JESUS
    "to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me." Acts 26:18
    "He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption." 1 Corinthians 1:30
    "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:11
    "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:9-11
    "For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one origin. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers," Hebrews 2:11
    "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10
    "Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:" 2 Peter 1:1

    YAHWEH
    "And he said, ‘My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.’ And he said to him, ‘If your presence will not go with me, do not bring us up from here.’" Exodus 33:14-15
    JESUS
    "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30

    YAHWEH
    "loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." Deuteronomy 30:20
    JESUS
    "For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory." Colossians 3:3-4

    YAHWEH
    "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:39
    "Also henceforth I am he; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?" Isaiah 43:13
    JESUS
    "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

    YAHWEH
    "Because of your promise, and according to your own heart, you have brought about all this greatness, to make your servant know it. Therefore you are great, O Yahweh God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. And who is like your people Israel, the one nation on earth whom God went to redeem to be his people, making himself a name and doing for them great and awesome things by driving out before your people, whom you redeemed for yourself from Egypt, a nation and its gods? And you established for yourself your people Israel to be your people forever. And you, O LORD, became their God." 2 Samuel 7:21-24
    "They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." Ezekiel 37:23
    JESUS
    "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:11-14

    YAHWEH
    "The Spirit of Yahweh speaks by me; his word is on my tongue." 2 Samuel 23:2
    "You gave your good Spirit to instruct them and did not withhold your manna from their mouth and gave them water for their thirst ... Many years you bore with them and warned them by your Spirit through your prophets. Yet they would not give ear. Therefore you gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands." Nehemiah 9:20, 30
    JESUS
    "Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look." 1 Peter 1:10-12
     
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  6. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    YAHWEH
    "For you are my lamp, O Yahweh, and my God lightens my darkness." 2 Samuel 22:29
    "Yahweh is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?" Psalm 27:1
    "For with you is the fountain of life; in your light do we see light." Psalm 36:9
    "The sun shall be no more your light by day, nor for brightness shall the moon give you light; but Yahweh will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun shall no more go down, nor your moon withdraw itself; for Yahweh will be your everlasting light, and your days of mourning shall be ended." Isaiah 60:19-20
    "I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore." Ezekiel 37:26-28
    JESUS
    "In him was life, and the life was the light of men… The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world." John 1:4, 9
    "Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, ‘I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.’" John 8:12
    "We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:4-5
    "I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness." John 12:46
    "And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it," Revelation 21:22-24

    YAHWEH
    "And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for Yahweh searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever." 1 Chronicles 28:9
    "If you say, 'But we knew nothing about this,' does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?" Proverbs 24:12
    "But, O Yahweh of hosts, who judges righteously, who tests the heart and the mind, let me see your vengeance upon them, for to you have I committed my cause." Jeremiah 11:20
    "I Yahweh search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds." Jeremiah 17:10
    JESUS
    "Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God." 1 Corinthians 4:5
    According to Paul, the Lord that is coming is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ:
    "so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:7-8
    "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first… and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.’" Revelation 2:18-19, 23

    YAHWEH
    "For the eyes of Yahweh range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war." 2 Chronicles 16:9
    "Yahweh is in his holy temple; Yahweh’s throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test, the children of man." Psalm 11:4
    "So he said to me, ‘This is the word of Yahweh to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says Yahweh of hosts… Who despises the day of small things? Men will rejoice when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. (These seven are the eyes of Yahweh, which range throughout the earth.)" Zechariah 4:6, 10
    JESUS
    "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead." Revelation 3:1
    "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth." Revelation 5:6

    YAHWEH
    "You are Yahweh, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you." Nehemiah 9:6
    JESUS
    "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Colossians 1:16-17
    "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," Hebrews 1:2-3

    YAHWEH
    "O Yahweh, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and infants, you have established strength because of your foes, to still the enemy and the avenger." Psalm 8:1-2
    JESUS
    "But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, ‘Hosanna to the Son of David!’ they were indignant, and they said to him, ‘Do you hear what these are saying?’ And Jesus said to them, ‘Yes; have you never read, "Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise"?’" Matthew 21:15-16

    YAHWEH
    "Lift up your heads, O gates! And be lifted up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in. Who is this King of glory? Yahweh, strong and mighty, Yahweh, mighty in battle! Lift up your heads, O gates! And lift them up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in. Who is this King of glory? Yahweh of hosts, he is the King of glory! Selah" Psalm 24:7-10
    "And I will be to her a wall of fire all around, declares Yahweh, and I will be the glory in her midst." Zechariah 2:5
    JESUS
    "None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." 1 Corinthians 2:8
    "My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory." James 2:1

    YAHWEH
    "Oh, taste and see that Yahweh is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!" Psalm 34:8
    "But the LORD of hosts, him you shall regard as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem." Isaiah 8:13-14
    JESUS
    "if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: ‘Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.’ So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,’ and ‘A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.’ They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." 1 Peter 2:3-8
    "but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." 1 Peter 3:15

    YAHWEH
    "Come and hear, all you who fear God, and I will tell what he has done for my soul." Psalm 66:16
    JESUS
    "‘Return to your home, and declare how much God has done for you.’ And he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city how much Jesus had done for him." Luke 8:39
     
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  7. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    YAHWEH
    "Once God has spoken; twice have I heard this: that power belongs to God, and that to you, O Lord, belongs steadfast love. For you will render to a man according to his work. Psalm 62:11-12
    "For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, as on the day at Massah in the wilderness," Psalm 95:7-8 ESV
    "Behold, the Lord Yahweh comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him. He will tend his flock like a shepherd; he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom, and gently lead those that are with young." Isaiah 40:10-11
    "Behold, Yahweh has proclaimed to the end of the earth: Say to the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your salvation comes; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.’" Isaiah 62:11
    JESUS
    "For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done." Matthew 16:27
    "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep… I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd." John 10:11, 14-16
    "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." John 10:27-28
    "‘Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done’ ... He who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming soon.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!" Revelation 22:12, 20

    YAHWEH
    "You ascended on high, leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that Yahweh God may dwell there." Psalm 68:18
    "Am I a God at hand, declares Yahweh, and not a God afar off? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares Yahweh. Do I not fill heaven and earth? Declares Yahweh." Jeremiah 23:23-24
    JESUS
    "But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, ‘When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.’ (In saying, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)" Ephesians 4:7-10

    YAHWEH
    "Your word, O Yahweh, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens." Psalm 119:89
    "The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8
    JESUS
    "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." Mark 13:31; cf. Matthew 24:35

    YAHWEH
    "O Israel, hope in Yahweh! For with Yahweh there is steadfast love, and with him is plentiful redemption. And he will redeem Israel from all his iniquities." Psalm 130:7-8
    "Say to those who have an anxious heart, ‘Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you.’" Isaiah 35:4
    JESUS
    "‘She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.’ All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: ‘Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel’ (which means, God with us)." Matthew 1:21-23

    YAHWEH
    "‘O my God,’ I say, ‘take me not away in the midst of my days - you whose years endure throughout all generations!’ Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end." Psalm 102:24-27
    JESUS
    "But of the Son he says ... And, ‘You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.’" Hebrews 1:8a, 10-12

    YAHWEH
    "And it came to pass in the year in which king Ozias died, that I saw the Lord [eidon ton kurion] sitting on a high and exalted throne, and the house was full of his glory [tees doxees autou]. And seraphs stood round about him: each one had six wings: and with two they covered their face, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. And one cried to the other, and they said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory [tees doxees autou]’. And the lintel shook at the voice they uttered, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said, Woe is me, for I am pricked to the heart; for being a man, and having unclean lips, I dwell in the midst of a people having unclean lips; and I have seen with mine eyes the King, the Lord of hosts… And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go to this people? And I said, behold, I am here, send me. And he said, Go, and say to this people, Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." Isaiah 6:1-5, 8-10 LXX
    JESUS
    "Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: ‘Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?’ For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: ‘He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn-and I would heal them.’ Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory [eiden teen doxan autou] and spoke about." John 12:37-41
    In a footnote, the translators of the NET Bible state:
    88 tn Grk "his"; the referent (Christ) has been specified in the translation for clarity. The referent supplied here is "Christ" rather than "Jesus" because it involves what Isaiah saw. It is clear that the author presents Isaiah as having seen the preincarnate glory of Christ, which was the very revelation of the Father (see John 1:18; John 14:9).
    sn Because he saw Christ’s glory. The glory which Isaiah saw in Isa 6:3 was the glory of Yahweh (typically rendered as "Lord" in the OT). Here John speaks of the prophet seeing the glory of Christ since in the next clause and spoke about him, "him" can hardly refer to Yahweh, but must refer to Christ. On the basis of statements like 1:14 in the prologue, the author probably put no great distinction between the two. Since the author presents Jesus as fully God (cf. John 1:1), it presents no problem to him to take words originally spoken by Isaiah of Yahweh himself and apply them to Jesus. (Source)
     
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  8. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    YAHWEH
    "Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, Yahweh, the first, and with the last; I am he." Isaiah 41:4
    "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6
    "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last." Isaiah 48:12
    JESUS
    "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.’" Revelation 1:17-18
    "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.’" Revelation 2:8
    "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Revelation 22:12-13

    YAHWEH
    "‘You are my witnesses,’ declares Yahweh, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.’" Isaiah 43:10
    JESUS
    "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." Acts 1:8

    YAHWEH
    "I am Yahweh; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols." Isaiah 42:8
    "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another." Isaiah 48:11
    JESUS
    "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed… Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." John 17:5, 24

    YAHWEH
    "for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water." Jeremiah 2:13
    JESUS
    "On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, ‘If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."’" John 7:37-38

    YAHWEH
    "Thus says Yahweh: ‘Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from Yahweh. He is like a shrub in the desert, and shall not see any good come. He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness, in an uninhabited salt land. Blessed is the man who trusts in Yahweh, whose trust is Yahweh. He is like a tree planted by water, that sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit.’" Jeremiah 17:5-8
    JESUS
    "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me." John 14:1
    "which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me." 2 Timothy 1:12

    YAHWEH
    "And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the east. And the sound of his coming was like the sound of many waters, and the earth shone with his glory." Ezekiel 43:2
    "As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9-10
    "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed." Daniel 7:13-14
    JESUS
    "Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. The hairs of his head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.’" Revelation 1:12-18

    YAHWEH
    "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day HIS FEET shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him." Zechariah 14:1-5
    JESUS
    "And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.’ Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away." Acts 1:9-12
    "May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones." 1 Thessalonians 3:13 NIV
    "and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed." 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

    YAHWEH
    "For I Yahweh do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed." Malachi 3:6
    JESUS
    "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8
    In light of the foregoing, is it any wonder that the Church from its inception believed that the Lord Jesus Christ is Yahweh God Almighty?
     
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  9. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I just read this article

    VATICAN IN AWE: 1500 Year Old Bible Confirms that Jesus Christ Was Not Crucified – Natives Today

    It starts :-

    Much to the dismay of the Vatican, an approx. 1500-2000 year old bible was found in Turkey, in the Ethnography Museum of Ankara. Discovered and kept secret in the year 2000, the book contains the Gospel of Barnabas – a disciple of Christ – which shows that Jesus was not crucified, nor was he the son of God, but a Prophet. The book also calls Apostle Paul “The Impostor”. The book also claims that Jesus ascended to heaven alive, and that Judas Iscariot was crucified in his place.
     
  10. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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  11. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Sorry it came out like that I'll rewrite it in abit
     
  12. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for 100 pages of spam.
     
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  13. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Hebrew scholars ay I am = error at Exodus---- They did not do the Septuagint. They are correct.
    The Pharisees didn't say one truth about Jesus.
     
  14. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Thomas was confused on both ends of the spectrum.
    Trinity translations are filled with errors to deceive, by the will of satan through the religion that came out of Rome= 100% fact of life---LOOK.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Jesus appears to be of the Pharisee tradition, so what we read in the gospels is essentially a "family argument". Also, upon arrest, Paul identifies himself as being a Pharisee.
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Evidence for this? How do you supposedly know that the JW's are not from "the will of satan"?

    Also, how do you supposedly know that the concept of the trinity is "filled with errors"?
     
  17. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    Did you read my post quoting scholars regarding the Septuagint? You have not presented any scholarly support. Sophomoric.
     
  18. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    hahahahahahaha!!!!!
     
  19. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    This is a pretty good article dealing with that very issue. Jesus, A Pharisee?
     
  20. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    5. John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

    John 1:14 tells us that “the Word” is Jesus. Therefore, when John states in the third clause of verse 1 that “the Word was God,” he claims that Jesus is God in the plainest of terms. JWs, however, will not allow you to cite this verse without opposition. They claim that the final clause should be translated “the Word was a god” (NWT). In a Watchtower tract they are likely to leave with you titled, “Should You Believe in the Trinity,”[8] reasons are provided why they believe the clause should be translated, “the Word was a god.”[9]

    The first reason provided in the tract is that “someone who is ‘with’ another person cannot be the same as that other person.” This is correct and is brought up because of the verse’s second clause, “the Word was with God.” However, Christians do not believe that Jesus is the same person as the Father. Rather, from the early Church to the present, Christians believe that God is One, in three persons. Therefore, the Watchtower’s objection is without any strength.

    The tract then cites an article from the Journal of Biblical Literature.[10] Apparently they didn’t believe anyone would actually check the article and read it. Otherwise they would have never cited it. We will look at this article in-depth in a moment.

    The tract continues by listing nine translations which render the third clause as the Word (Jesus) is “a god,” “godlike,” or “divine.” The average reader will not recognize any of these translations. The most recognized and certainly the majority of translations all render the verse, “the Word was God.”[11] However, the issue is not how many scholars believe something, but why they believe it.

    The Watchtower returns to the Journal article and states that “expressions ‘with an anarthrous [no article] predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning.’ As the Journal notes, this indicates that the logos can be likened to a god. It also says of John 1:1: ‘The qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun [theos] cannot be regarded as definite.’” These are heavy statements for the non-Greek student. Let’s try to simplify them somewhat with a few definitions.

    Logos is the Greek term for “word” and is referring to Jesus in the context of John 1 (see verse 14). Theos is the Greek word for “God.” A predicate is a word(s) that describes the subject of the sentence. For example, in the sentence, “the girl is smart,” “girl” is the subject and “smart” is the predicate, since it is describing the girl. Articles are either definite or indefinite. When an article is definite (eg. the), it is identifying something. For example, suppose I was in a public debate with a JW and someone asked, “Which of the two is Mike?” The answer, “Mike is the tall guy,” identifies me from the other. Now let us suppose that later on someone else heard about the debate and asks, “What is Mike like?” The answer, “Mike is a tall guy” employs an indefinite article (eg. a, an) and points to a quality or trait (ie. tallness). There is no attempt to distinguish or identify the noun from others when the indefinite article is used. In Greek, there are no indefinite articles. However, the absence of the definite article in Greek usually has the same effect as the English indefinite article and places stress on the quality or trait of the noun.

    With this in mind, let us now look at the Journal article cited by the Watchtower and what the Watchtower claims regarding it. In order to determine what John meant when he wrote, “the Word was God,” the Journal article’s author, Philip Harner, lists five ways in which John could have said it in Greek. We will refer to these as Clauses A-E as Harner does.[12] The clauses have been translated below in English for the reader. The word “the” indicates that the Greek definite article appears before the word.

    A. The Word was the God.
    B. God was the Word. (This is what John wrote.)
    C. The Word God was.
    D. The Word was God.
    E. The Word was divine. (A different word, theios, is used.)

    Harner states that if the word theos [God] had the article [as in Clause A above], then Clause A “would contradict the preceding clause of 1:1, in which John writes that the Word was with God [translated from Greek].” This is because the two words (ie. logos, theos) would be equivalent to the point that there would be no differentiation between the two as persons and John’s statement that “the Word was with God” certainly indicates that two persons are involved. So the Watchtower tract is correct when it says that “if the latter part of John 1:1 were interpreted to mean ‘the’ God, this ‘would then contradict the preceding clause,’ which says that the Word was with God.”

    Harner continues, “Clause D, with the verb preceding an anarthrous [without the article] predicate, would probably mean that the logos was ‘a god’ or a divine being of some kind [as the Watchtower translates it] ... Clause E would be an attenuated form of D [ie. carrying a lesser force than D]. ... John evidently wished to say something about the logos that was other than A and more than D and E.”[13] In other words, Harner says that John wanted to say something other than that God and Jesus were the same person and that the proper way to say that the Word was “a god” or “divine” would be to use Clause D or E.

    However, John wanted to say something stronger about the Word, since he uses Clause B. Harner’s very next statement is cited by the Watchtower tract – yet not in its entirety and its commentary is deliberately misleading. According to the tract, “The Journal of Biblical Literature says that expressions ‘with an anarthrous [no article] predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning.’ As the Journal notes, this indicates that the logos can be likened to a god. It also says of John 1:1: ‘The qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun [theos] cannot be regarded as definite.’”

    Now here is what Harner actually said in the Journal. After stating that John wished to say something other than A and more than D and E, he continues, “Clauses B and C, with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos [emphasis mine].”[14] In other words, clauses B and C stress theos as the quality or character of the Word and indicate that the Word and God share the same nature! And this statement is omitted from the Watchtower tract, although it comes immediately after the statement they quote! Moreover, contrary to the tract, the Journal does not note that the Word “can be likened to a god.” Harner has clearly said in the statement immediately preceding that John wished to say something more than that! This is deception on the part of the Watchtower. They are deliberately misleading its followers and every reader of their tract.

    He continues that if theos in Clauses B and C was taken as definite instead of qualitative, then B and C would be the same as A and would be problematic as well given the context. Therefore, theos must be referring to the quality of the logos [Word].[15] But what is the quality John is wishing to emphasize?

    The Watchtower tract says, “So John 1:1 highlights the quality of the Word, that he was ‘divine,’ ‘godlike,’ ‘a god,’[16] but not Almighty God.” Remember that the very article they cite states that John did not mean to say that, but more; that the Word has the nature of God. So what does Harner claim is the quality John wished to emphasize? At the end of the article, he states, “These examples [ie. Clauses A-E] illustrate the difficulty of translating the clause accurately into English. This does not mean that the translators were not aware of the issue involved ... Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’ This would be one way of representing John's thought, which is, as I understand it, that ho logos [the Word], no less than ho theos [the God], had the nature of theos [God].”[17] The Word, no less than God, has the nature of deity. Deity is the quality John wishes to ascribe to the Word.

    So to sum up the article, Harner states that if John had wished to say that the Word was “a god” or “divine,” he had two ways, even a different word, by which he could have done so. But it is evident that he wished to say something even stronger about Jesus. He did not wish to say that Jesus and God are the same person, since he has already stated that they are two persons and there was a way in Greek for him to have done so if he had wished. What John does say is that Jesus and God share the same nature; that Jesus, no less than God, has the nature of deity. This is an extremely strong statement, since it rules out any interpretation that Jesus was merely acting in God’s place, but was not God Himself. Rather, Jesus was God in his very nature and essence. John’s words echo Paul’s in Colossians 2:9 discussed above when he says that in Jesus, “all the fulness [nothing excepted] of deity dwells.”

    So we observe that the Watchtower has taken a few statements out of context to justify their translation, “the Word was a god,” from an article which states that their translation is wrong, and that Jesus possesses the nature of God. It is also interesting to note that the tract states that “[t]here are many other Bible verses in which almost all translators in other languages consistently insert the article ‘a’ when translating Greek sentences with the same structure.” What they do not say is that such does not take into account a simple Greek rule found in just about any Greek Grammar: proper names, places, and certain words such as “God,” “Lord,” and “Holy Spirit” appear numerous times throughout the New Testament with and without the article with no apparent change of meaning and are, therefore, exempt from the very general rule of when to insert the indefinite article ‘a’ when translating Greek.[18] Such a gross lack of scholarship is not a reflection on the JWs who come to your door with a sincere heart and are good students of Watchtower interpretations. However, it reflects a dangerously deceptive and intellectually naïve leadership at the Watchtower that should neither be followed nor trusted.

    Now let’s observe how consistent the Watchtower is with this rule concerning “an anarthrous [no article] predicate preceding the verb” throughout its own translation, the New World Translation. In the New Testament there are exactly four occurrences where theos (God) appears as a singular predicate noun, without the article, before the verb (Luke 20:38; John 1:1; 8:54; Philippians 2:13). Remember the Watchtower said that this grammatical structure merited the translation, “a god.” Yet, in every instance, the New World Translation has rendered theos as “God,” contrary to the committee’s rule, except one – John 1:1! In other words, they made a rule then broke it every time except one occurrence when convenient. (See Appendix 1: More on John 1:1 in this book for a detailed look at each of these four verses.)

    Therefore, the Watchtower has not only deliberately deceived its trusting followers, but has demonstrated a lack of knowledge of basic rules of Greek and is grossly inconsistent in applying its own rule. This is pseudo-scholarship at its finest!

    On the other hand, Harner has shown why the translation, “the Word was God” is an accurate rendering of the Greek which is even more precise by saying that the Word possesses the very nature of deity, no less than God Himself. Indeed, the majority of translators render the clause “the Word was God.” Mike Licona What to say to Jehovah's Witnesses - 3. Biblical Texts for the Deity of Christ
     
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