The Bible And Science: Pi (Take 2)

[BilliardsBall]

It is often suggested, among unbelievers, that the writers of the Bible at 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2, where the molten sea, which is circular, in the courtyard of Solomon's temple, was, in fact, ten cubits from the brim to brim and "it took a line of thirty cubits to circle all around it" can not be mathematically correct because it is impossible to have any circle with these two values.

It's crucial to recognize that the decimal point didn't exist at that time and so it would have been pointless (pun intended) to refer to it that way. Bible commentator Christian Wordsworth said: "Up to the time of Archimedes [third century B.C.E.], the circumference of a circle was always measured in straight lines by the radius; and Hiram would naturally describe the sea as thirty cubits round, measuring it, as was then invariably the practice, by its radius, or semi diameter, of five cubits, which being applied six times round the perimeter, or 'brim,' would give the thirty cubits stated. There was evidently no intention in the passage but to give the dimensions of the Sea, in the usual language that every one would understand, measuring the circumference in the way in which all skilled workers, like Hiram, did measure circles at that time. He, of course, must however have known perfectly well, that as the polygonal hexagon thus inscribed by the radius was thirty cubits, the actual curved circumference would be somewhat more."

Using reason and research over baseless speculation of the skeptic the Bible student knows that the molten sea was 10 cubits, or 15 feet in diameter and it took a line of 30 cubits, or 45 feet to encompass it. A ratio, by the way, of three was adequate for the sake of record at that time.

And... have you seen the demonstrations of how Pi was encoded in the controversial passages, to five decimal places?!

 

[exchemist]

I challenge all skeptics to post the entire number pi on this thread. Thank you.

Because you know you can't even do it.

???
Why do you think a "sceptic" would think they could do that, except by an algebraic relation? π is an irrational number (in fact, a transcendental number). "Sceptics" tend to know that sort of thing, you see.

 

[ecco]

Do you realise in 2000-3000 years we are going to look as bad or worse than they did back then? They will look back at us and laugh as we do at the people in the bronze ages.

I don't think people with a sense of history laugh at people from the bronze age or even the stone age. I think many of their achievements are remarkable.

This thread is not laughing at the ancients' view of pi. This thread is about considering if a god authored the bible, then things should have been more acurate.

 

[exchemist]

I don't think people with a sense of history laugh at people from the bronze age or even the stone age. I think many of their achievements are remarkable.

This thread is not laughing at the ancients' view of pi. This thread is about considering if a god authored the bible, then things should have been more acurate.

Commendable sentiments, but I'm not sure you are right about this thread.

It seems to me only an idiot would base a serious criticism of the bible on the mathematical exactness of some obscure verse. I suspect the whole thread is a synthetic fuss about something that is just not an issue.

 

[ecco]

And the reason?

I don't see that. I think our knowledge and technology will keep growing, but so will the big problem of over population.
There may come a time when it's decided by the elite and powerful, to put it nicely, to do some population cut backs of the not so important because technology and advancement will be more important than life(over crowding).

Tubes tied (chemically, not physically) at puberty. Tubes untied (for one pregnancy) based on a lottery.

Testes tied (chemically, not physically) at puberty. Testes untied (for one sperm donation) based on a lottery.


I wouldn't rule out extensive egg and sperm culling to eliminate all but the best, however those in charge choose to determine "best".

 

[ecco]

And... have you seen the demonstrations of how Pi was encoded in the controversial passages, to five decimal places?!

Puleese, do show us.

 

[ecco]

It is often suggested, among unbelievers, that the writers of the Bible at 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2, where the molten sea, which is circular, in the courtyard of Solomon's temple, was, in fact, ten cubits from the brim to brim and "it took a line of thirty cubits to circle all around it" can not be mathematically correct because it is impossible to have any circle with these two values.

So someone gave some approximations of the size of a lake and that made it into the Bible.

Have a lot of people really said: See, they didn't even know the true value of Pi, therefore the Bible must be wrong!

Commendable sentiments, but I'm not sure you are right about this thread.

I already addressed that aspect of it.

 

[exchemist]

I already addressed that aspect of it.

Ah OK I had missed that.

 

[Skwim]

And the reason?

I don't see that. I think our knowledge and technology will keep growing, but so will the big problem of over population.
There may come a time when it's decided by the elite and powerful, to put it nicely, to do some population cut backs of the not so important because technology and advancement will be more important than life(over crowding).

Resources. We will have depleted our resources to such an extent that only a fortunate few will have access to them or be able to benefit from them. That, plus the population bomb.

.

 

[Skwim]

You ignored the context of the verse you quoted. The passage includes this: “And the thickness of it was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held three thousand baths.” So II Chronicles actually supports me. That is evidence.

Sorry, but nope. It doesn't suggest a "different separate circle" at all.

.

 

[Audie]

10 cubits in diameter and giving it a 30 cubits circumference is pretty close being this was thousands of years ago with limited knowledge including maths.
In all honestly it is not much different with our knowledge and we date something at +/- 100 million years.

They weren't exact and neither are we in current days.

It's all petty arguments that mean and add up to nothing.

It adds up to the diffrrence beteeen perfect and approximate.

As soon as the goddies admit their bible is full of
things only approximately true, there will no call to
point it out (prove) it to them.

 

[Audie]

Do you realise in 2000-3000 years we are going to look as bad or worse than they did back then? They will look back at us and laugh as we do at the people in the bronze ages.

The laughter is at those who even unto today
deny that there is any error in the bible. Maybe
some day even the fundies will catch up with,
say, the 19th century.


ETA. Woberts is right. That is (too)
optimistic.

 

[Audie]

π

int_0^1 4/(1+x^2) dx

Ok 74x your challenge was met. Now see if you can meet mine.

 

[Polymath257]

And... have you seen the demonstrations of how Pi was encoded in the controversial passages, to five decimal places?!

I find numerology to be particularly silly. You can take *any* text and find numerical patterns if you look hard enough.

 

[Shad]

I don't understand the logic in that criticism. Why would it be a poor approximation if it was the extent of the knowledge of the people at the time? Why would you expect some "deity," which is just another word for "mighty" or "venerated" to write to the people of a specific time using a language or knowledge that is more advanced than their own? This isn't science fiction.

It is called education. Heard of it?

Also your criticism is undermined by something called prophecy. Prophecy being advanced knowledge outside the current time frame.

 

[Audie]

It is called education. Heard of it?

Also your criticism is undermined by something called prophecy. Prophecy being advanced knowledge outside the current time frame.

Prophecy reverses cause and effect.

As for "god" handing out advanced knowledge
of such as Pi, or suchlike, that would be proving
his existence.

 

[Shad]

Prophecy reverses cause and effect.

The point was it is a form of advanced knowledge held by the deity and communicated to it's followers as claimed.

As for "god" handing out advanced knowledge
of such as Pi, or suchlike, that would be proving
his existence.

Maybe. The decimal system is a logical expansion of the 10 set number system

 

[Audie]

The point was it is a form of advanced knowledge held by the deity and communicated to it's followers as claimed.



Maybe. The decimal system is a logical expansion of the 10 set number system

I got how prophecy contradicted the point attempted.

If not Pi to 31 trillion decimal places, then
sone other impossible-for- the-time knowledge.

The apologists always say ( make up) something
about people not being ready for the knowledge.

To me it seems more like negating the value
of faith though it is all make -believe anyway.

 

[ecco]

In the grand scheme of things discussing biblical inerrancy in terms of the approximate ratio of diameter to circumference is silly.

To really see biblical inerrancy at its finest, one just needs to point to the nonsense of the Great Flood.

 

[ecco]

And... have you seen the demonstrations of how Pi was encoded in the controversial passages, to five decimal places?!

We're still waiting for you to show the "demonstrations of how Pi was encoded... to five decimal places".