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Featured The Bible and an over active imagination!

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by JJ50, Jul 25, 2019.

  1. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    keep in mind that God gave this law to Moses when He decided to create prophets to speak to Israel, because the people were terrified when God spoke to them in person.
    They actually asked Moses to tell God not to speak to them believing they will die as they witnessed His power.
    God then told Moses that he will speak through a man.
    To prove that this man is speaking the words of what God told him to relay to them, God allowed a TEST to prove the authenticity of the Prophet.
    He should be able to tell the immediate future.

    Now, this is what no other men could do in history. Every prophet in Israel was tested, and if they were caught out as pretenders, they were held accountable by the elders, and were executed by their law.
    Jesus was not condemned as a false prophet, but for blasphemy making Himself God.

    Think about this:
    Muhammad was a false prophet, and if he was to be stoned to death if the law were to prove him as a false prophet, just think how many lives would have been saved over 1400 years of Muslim terrorism. tens of Millions!

    If Jim Jones, David Koresh, Di Mambro, Marchall Applewhite, Joseph Kibweteere, were tested, and were executed for being false prophets, there would have been more than a thousand lives would have been saved.

    Obviously we dont have "False prophets" laws in our age, and therefore will it be highly in appropriate to execute someone who pretend to be a prophet and make predictions for monitary or power gain.

    But, heck!
    I can still demand that these people be tested to determine if they are liars!
    In South Africa we have a huge number of so called "Prophets" (Mostly in the black community) who deceives people to make millions for their own gain, living like kings whilst our people are some of the poorest in the world.
    What I do is to speak to many pastors, and people and I show them Deut 18: 18 to 22.
    many black Churches took the lead and publishes these verses in their news letters, and teaches their congregations about the :
    "Test to determine if someone is a false prophet"

    Anyhow, they dont kill these people, but they do stop them in their deception slowly but surely.
     
  2. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Here you are nutpicking, it is estimated that in Indonesia alone since the end of the colonial period after WW2 about 600 Indonesians claimed to have divine revelations1, if we consider the vastly greater number in the 195 countries of the world it is clear that a policy of killing prophets applied the world over would result in the deaths of thousands of people who are mostly innocuous in the last 75 years alone.

    The teachings of prophets may either be positive, negative or morally neautral and the fact that you can only list 5 harmful ones (in modern times) shows why such a policy should not be implemented on a wide scale as it would kill more innocents than it would save.

    Besides, if a prophet is harmful, we deal with them because they are proven to be harmful, otherwise like all other people they are innocent until proven guilty.

    1 UFO cults, messiahs and heavenly kingdoms: Indonesia's self-proclaimed prophets on the rise
     
    #62 danieldemol, Jul 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
  3. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I won't be surprised if some people (high up in the hierarchy) won't hesitate to kind of "help destiny" reach "Bible destiny" according to prophecies
     
  4. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I don't understand your comment?
     
  5. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I might be, But to claim "Divine revelations", and to Pretend to be a prophet is 2 different things.
    And yet again.
    How will we know if someone is lying about these prophecies they received?
    Well, lets not even use the Bible, but logic.
    I hold that if someone claims they receive a prophecy from God,
    1. then this God will obviously let us to test to prove that it is Him speaking, and not this person.
    2. This God will give a sign that this person is relaying His words.
    3. Such a God will allow me, a mere man, to test this prophet, to see if he can tell the future, or give a sign.
    4. if this person can not do it, hell man it is obvious he is a liar!
    5. Or he is deceived by Satan.

    And yes, I said we are not allowed to execute someone for deception, but this is a test that YHWH allowed Israel to practice to determine if a prophet is a prophet.

    And, I have met many so called prophets, and once I ask them what the future holds, they tell me I am a pharisee, because Jesus did not give a sign from heaven when they asked for it.
    Well, they forget, Jesus did many miracles, and did give true prophecies.
     
  6. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Of course it's all about interpretation. And I am not interested in this myself, but others are

    For example, in the Church I was, all people (4000) believe that Jesus will only return, after all humans have heard about Jesus.
    Hence quite a few Christians are into evangelizing, because they really believe that this will speed up "Jesus returning to earth"

    Another prophecy, according to people in this Church, is, that Jews from all over the earth first need to come back to Israel (which already is happening, according to them). If you tell this story often enough, they might even change their mind and return, rather sooner than later.

    They had many other scenarios, which, according to them are very close to match the prophecies. Some quite sinister even.

    Personally I do not believe in this. But others might be willing to "kill" for it, because they also believe that only the "chosen ones" will be taken into safety by Jesus. So there is a lot at stake for them that believe this. And people have done "worse" for less. Here we are talking about people believing they are the chosen ones and They get front seats at the table together with Jesus and God (that's what they are talking about)

    This was in a Mega Church in Holland from Baptists (Holland is very tiny, so Mega in Holland means only 4000 members:D)
     
  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Nope not at all can the Bible be interpreted in so many ways, that's man teachings.

    To say God's word can be interpreted in so many ways, that would make God a God of confusion.
    But yet the Bible says, God is not the God of confusion.
    But yet man's teachings make God as a God of confusion.
    In everything you spoke about is man's teachings and nothing what Jesus Christ teaches.
    As for the book of Revelation, is for God's elect people, to guide them during the tribulation and God's elect people will understand everything that is written in the book of Revelation.
     
  8. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    You have no evidence to substantiate that comment, which is a figment of your imagination, imo.
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    All my proof lays within the Bible, which you have no clue or idea about.

    As Jesus Christ himself condemned the teachings of man's in Matthew 15:7-9

    7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

    8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

    9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"
     
    #69 Faithofchristian, Jul 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
  10. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    My Mom got her PhD in English lit at Edinburgh
    and taught for some years at a college in HK.
    Your first paragraph was not really needed.

    The statement was that the bible does not need
    interpreting, that it means what it says.

    You will note that I made mention of figures of
    speech, a nod to that those are there in abundance.

    I have on a number of occasions found that I know
    the bible better than the church goer that I am talking
    to.

    The "open mind" question is not an entirely fair one.
    Who does have a 100% objective approach to anything?
    Certainly, nobody raised as a christian has a prayer of
    looking at their book with an open mind. In this, I'd
    venture that I had then and have now a more open
    mind and a better understanding of what the bible is
    than any Christian you will find.

    I was raised in a place where Christians are a small
    minority, and I had no interest in their doings.

    In the US, I found out it is good to know what they
    are about. So I read the bible, twice.

    Obviously, it is quite a mix of things by many authors
    over many years. Some good and some bad advice;
    folk wisdom, semi-historical accounts, a bunch of magic
    realism, etc and blah. Sometimes in excruciating detail,
    sometimes so vague and cryptic you wonder what you
    just read. I get all of that. (for heaven's sake!)

    Now, to what I said earlier. If it is to be read as a
    reasonably straight forward account, not to be interpreted
    into something quite different from what
    it says, then, of course Jesus is not a door or a lamb,
    and, of course the world was poofed into place
    more or less as is, not long ago, and, there was
    a world wide flood. Which is, as I noted, bs.

    Not that I care or that I am (what I see as) a
    victim of this fraud, but that is how I see it.

    And I am fully aware that there are about as
    many different ways to see it as there are
    people gifted of god with infallible readin' powers.

    T he subject to which I responded was about
    reading it with a minimum of interpretation.
     
    #70 Audie, Jul 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
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  11. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Funny to see someone saying it cannot be so
    widely interpreted, when all about it is so
    obviously being interpreted in so many wildly
    different ways.
     
  12. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    You read the Bible twice.
    Well done.
    I know that most, perhaps 99% of all Christians never did.
    I would love to discuss the Biblical problems you have at some time in the future.
    Such as everything poofed into existance such as the Big Bang, and such as a global flood, such as the Plate tectonic movements etc.
    It will me nice to see how you understand the existence of the universe.

    I would like to know how one should expect to find evidence of God, with a tellescope taking a picture of a divine being sitting on a throne far away.
    I looked my house yesterday, and I could have sworn I saw the architect in the wall in the lounge.
    ;)
     
  13. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Because if you deny it, you would deny his diversity of view, confirming thereby what he says.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  14. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Every Jewish person understands that the prophets were the sages of old.
     
  15. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    But this is what you said. Are you moving the goalposts now?

    And you still haven't given an example of a sage (or did you mean prophet?) suggesting that a specific prophecy was about Jesus or even of Messiah. For it to be a valid prophecy you need to cite a sage/prophet from before the time of Jesus citing a bible passage and saying it refers to Jesus or messiah.

    Waiting.
     
  16. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I'm sorry... my apology for using the wrong words and I definitely created the confusion.

    I should have said that the priests and scholars that wrote the Talmud believed that there were prophetic scriptures and were accepted as such. Whether the Jews believe the Talmud authors to be sages or not... I would have to ask them.
     
  17. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Please give us a passage from a sage in the Talmud from before Jesus time that talks about Jesus or Messiah which confirms Christian interpretation about Jesus.
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Is 11:1 Rabbi David Kimchi wrote in reference to this verse, 'By the righteous Branch is meant Messiah.' The compilers of the Targum agreed with Kimchi since they introduced Messiah by name in this passage. (David Baron, Rays of Messiah's Glory: Christ in the Old Testament [Grand Rapids, MI; Zondervan, 1886], p. 78)

    Hebrew scholar Alfred Edersheim quotes other Rabbinic writings in reference to this passage:
    On Jer. xxiii, 5, 6 the Targum has it: 'And I will raise up for David the Messiah the just.' This is one of the passages from which, according to Rabbinic views, one of the names of the Messiah is derived, viz.: Jehovah our Righteousness. So in the Talmud (Babha Bathra 75b), in the Midrash on Ps. xxii.1, Prov.xix.21, and in that on Lamentations I 16. (Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah [Grand Rapids, MI; Eerdmans, 1972], pt. 2, p. 731).

    Matthew 2:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
    4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

    5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

    6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
     
  19. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    None of these predate Jesus as far as I can deduce.
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Babha Bathra predates Jesus as did the ones who found out that a King was to be born in Bethlehem.
     
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