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Featured The Beast and Rome

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by AT-AT, May 23, 2019.

  1. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    I'm going to take a shot at this. My sense of History is a bit fuzzy right now, but this post just amounts to me asking for opinions and evidence of views:

    I'm skeptical Revelation talks about the future as it applies today - It seems to be a book talking about the Roman Empire yet making prophecies which never came to truly pass.

    Those that assert Revelation is future events, need to at the very least prove how Revelation isn't about Rome since it just seems to fit the descriptions. If you do believe it's Rome... I'd like to hear what you think is going to happen.
     
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  2. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Ok prove it's about Rome.

    Where in Revelations does it say these events take place in Rome?
     
  3. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    I find Revelation to be highly symbolic and metaphorical. I don't think it fits with specific literal events.
     
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  4. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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  5. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Most of Daniel and Isaiah are not about the future or even the destruction of the Temple.. The Evangelicals have been hijacked by the likes of Hal Lindsey and others who make their living telling Christians its all in some far distant future in direct contradiction to the Revelation letter.
     
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  7. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I'm actually taking the position of a negative claim, saying "I don't believe...."

    I've always understood the Burden of Proof as being on the one making the assertions. But maybe it's just me.
     
  8. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    In scriptural debates you can't argue the negative position.

    You can only argue the scripture and what it says or your interpretation of it. But to flat out deny it leads to a dead end.

    Why debate of at the end of the day you just say " well you can't prove that it's in the future so I win". Which is true, I cant prove it's going to happen in the future, because it hasn't happened yet lol.

    This would work in a general debate forum or science vs religion or many other forums. But not in this particular section.

    You're only course here is to take the position of "Revelations already happened Nero blah blah blah or WW2 blah blah" or "Revelations is yet to happen and this why:"

    Anyways I will respectfully drop out of the conversation now. Since there is no point in debating it.
     
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  9. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    I understand. Just know that there are no hard feelings. It's real cool.

    If this thread must be moved, I'm not going to fight it.

    Basically, you are smart enough to see that the Burden of Proof weighs heavily on Christians in debates. And you choose not to spend your time in such a thread.

    I do look forward to seeing you around the forum.
     
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  10. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    It seems that way.
     
  11. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Well to be fair, it's not our job to prove anything. Nobody proved to me anything to make me believe and I was an atheist for a considerable part of my life. Its something I had to prove to myself. And I have, but it's not proof for you, it's for me and me alone.

    I don't mind discussing ideas in good faith. But its futile to try and have a discussion when the door can be slammed by saying "no proof I win". What's the point of debating if that's where it leads? And it almost always does lead to that point because I can discuss this with you for aeons. But eventually you will tire, run put of ideas and workarounds, and slam the door, time wasted for both if us. At least this is my experience with debating with non-believers here.

    I agree though no hard feelings.:) You was respectful to me, and I have returned that respect.
     
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  12. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    I think as far as beasts you should step back.

    Adam was in change of the animals but after the fall the creation was broken and
    animals would become beastly. The nations acting beastly goes along with that.
    There would be beastly kingdoms and Daniel's visions would show that, one after another, after another.

    But the son of man , Jesus, will come and restore order

    I vote for future but hinted at in the present
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    There is not any, so to speak, proof that Rome was the subject and the Beast, but Rome was considered the dominant source of evil and the central concern of the Jewish world at the time it was composed. It was a dominantly from the Jewish perspective and composition at the time. There are a number of similar apocalyptic theme texts written at the time.
     
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  14. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Imo, events in Revelation are not happening in physical world, but human minds and consciousness.
     
  15. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    For what it’s worth, I believe God has the power to predict the future and to provide a glimpse into a future reality. This He achieves through Isaiah, Daniel and Revelation by way of a story that is veiled in symbolic language. Many (though not all) of the events spoken of in Revelation have already taken place. Although some events concern the Roman Empire that occupied the Holy Land for many centuries, Islamic Caliphates occupied the Holy land for much longer, over 1200 years.
     
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  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Like Thumper and Flower and Bambi.
     
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  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Little horn of chapter 8 … In Daniel 11:21-35, the prophet reveals the rise and rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Seleucid king who reigned from 175-164 B.C. Daniel’s prediction involves the rise of Antiochus to power, the conflicts of Antiochus with Egypt (i.e., the king of the South), and his hostilities towards Israel.In Daniel 11:21-35, the prophet reveals the rise and rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Seleucid king who reigned from 175-164 B.C. Daniel’s prediction involves the rise of Antiochus to power, the conflicts of Antiochus with Egypt (i.e., the king of the South), and his hostilities towards Israel.

    He's writing about the Maccabean Revolt and the Abomination of Desolation.
     
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  18. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I agree, though I believe little horn in Daniel 8:9 is different from the little horn of the fourth beast in Daniel 7:8.

    The fourth beast in Daniel is similar to the beast in Revelations 13 and 17.

    Some believe the fourth beast to be the Roman Empire but a Baha’i exegesis will also consider the Umayyad Caliphate that existed between 661 and 750 AD.

    Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    There was NO Daniel.. Danel was a popular hero among the north coast Canaanites.. The Hebrews borrowed him and just kept adding to the story over a period of 500 years.

    The Bible stories are wonderful fiction.. and the story of the Jews is far more remarkable, heroic, complicated and amazing than anything written in the OT or the NT.
     
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    It is possible that prophesies,apocalyptic literature, and other symbolic references in scripture applies in a cyclic manner over time in different Revelations over time in the spiritual evolution of humanity,
     
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